caliber wars, some real facts
- Thread starter apvbguy
- Start date
Rhino
New member
We can also see from real life use on the streets that caliber does very much make a difference, and that ballistic gelatin testing is often not predictive of successful use in real life. That having been said however, the main premise being pushed by the article, that acquiring a gun that you can handle and shoot well is more important than the caliber, is the very same premise that is most often presented on this forum. I can't recall a single instance when someone has been counseled to acquire a larger caliber without consideration of whether or not they could effectively handle it. Even within the same caliber, members here are advised to try guns before they buy them to insure they can handle and shoot them well first.
The problem the post in this link has is that it tries to boil the equation down to a single factor, caliber, when the choice for a proper defensive firearm is influenced by many factors. All of those factors have to be weighed, and some even weighed against each other, before the most logical choice can be found. And some of those factors will necessarily be subjective, such as what feels better in your hand. But even if you boil the equation down to the single factor of caliber, guess what? Larger calibers win. The author of the post even says that.
He goes on to say that advantage is negated if you aren't able to handle the larger caliber effectively, but we already knew that. And the common argument that larger calibers are better doesn't advise people to carry guns they can't handle. It only applies if you are able to handle the larger caliber firearm and shoot it effectively. The only "nonsense" at play here is the author's assumption that recommendation for larger calibers are made regardless of whether or not the carrier is able to handle the larger caliber or not, and that simply isn't true. I'm sure some people may do that in some rare instances, but it certainly isn't the norm, and absolutely not here. And there are many people who advise larger caliber handguns that may not specifically state that you must be able to effectively handle, carry and shoot them, but that is assumed. I always advise choosing the largest caliber you can handle and carry effectively. However, I may not always include the 'handle and carry' part because I assume that's a given.
Rhino
New member
If that's the most gun that fits with your carry situation sometimes, and you can handle it effectively, then it fits. The main point about caliber is choose the largest caliber where you can find a gun that you can handle, carry and shoot effectively. If you can't find that in a larger caliber, try the next caliber down. But sometimes power isn't the deciding factor at all. Sometimes the carry situation will dictate a certain gun that is smaller than you'd normally want. But the point is that that gun is still better than no gun at all, so that gun fits. If you can find another gun with more power that works for you in that situation down the road, great. But if not, then that existing gun is still the way to go, even if it isn't as powerful as you'd like. That's because effective shooting trumps power every time, and effective shooting includes the ability to carry well. But if you have the ability to effectively carry something larger than a 380, then you should. That's true for any caliber.
apvbguy
New member
30 years ago[pre glock] small, reliable 9mm weapons were few and far between so if you wanted to carry concealed you almost had to go with the weaker .380.
nowadays there are many viable options available in the more robust 9mm round.
that said, your wife's .380 is better than nothing but IMHO I would upgrade her to a shield, nao, or pps to name a few small 9mm guns
nowadays there are many viable options available in the more robust 9mm round.
that said, your wife's .380 is better than nothing but IMHO I would upgrade her to a shield, nao, or pps to name a few small 9mm guns
S&W645
NRA Life Member
Small, reliable guns were available pre-Glock 30 years ago. They just weren't light weight and plastic. S&W made 9mm back in the 50s that gunsmiths cut down to make smaller guns. 39-2 model was available in 1971. The Smith 39 and 59 models were cut down by a number of firms and are highly sought after today.
And as Rhino has pointed out, smaller does not always mean better. Effective shooting with a S&W CS 40 as compared to shooting the same round thru a S&W 4006 is a case in point. Any gun that you can control well is far better than a gun you can not.
BC1
,
I too think there's a lot of misunderstanding out there. Bigger is not necessarily better. Consider RFK, Hitler, Meier Kahane and Archduke Ferdinand were all killed with very small calibers because of shot placement. I always carried a 9mm which was the subject of much criticism. But I carry that caliber because it gives me a balance of speed and accuracy on follow-up shots. I believe getting back on target quickly is very important.
.
There are many things that affect the stopping power of a round. Is it hollow-point or round-nose? How big and how close is the attacker? How many layers of clothing is he wearing? What kind of expansion does the hollow-point have? What is the muzzle velocity? Where did the shot hit? Muzzle velocity, bullet weight and expansion are key as they determine what percent of the total kinetic energy is absorbed by the perp. Many factors make it impossible for there to be an absolute standard.
.
There are many things that affect the stopping power of a round. Is it hollow-point or round-nose? How big and how close is the attacker? How many layers of clothing is he wearing? What kind of expansion does the hollow-point have? What is the muzzle velocity? Where did the shot hit? Muzzle velocity, bullet weight and expansion are key as they determine what percent of the total kinetic energy is absorbed by the perp. Many factors make it impossible for there to be an absolute standard.
There are, however, other cartridges that have totally different and more boutique designs. I have a 5.7X28mm FN Hertzel, which is the pistol version of the NATO 5.56, which, by caliber is essentially a 22. In addition, there is a company, who specializes in redesign of this cartridge on many different levels of use and defense. All in all, you have a firearm/ammo system that has high velocity (2000fps), high accuracy, high lethality, high capacity (20+1) and lo recoil, plus, with a tweak of the cartridge, can be designed for literally any purpose and this has caused them problems since there is an ability to produce cartridges that are armor-piercing.
I do not worry about which calibers are best. I own calibers that I shoot well. The article did not tell me anything I did not know. The only
handguns I own are either .380 or .32 acp. I find them easy to shoot and can hit what I aim at. I have no doubt they will stop a threat if
I place my shots well. The .32 acp loaded with FMJ will go thru 4 layers of denim and penetrate 14 inches of ballistic gel. Now that's not bad
at all, and with low recoil, follow up shots are easy. I have the right calibers for me, do you?
:dirol:
handguns I own are either .380 or .32 acp. I find them easy to shoot and can hit what I aim at. I have no doubt they will stop a threat if
I place my shots well. The .32 acp loaded with FMJ will go thru 4 layers of denim and penetrate 14 inches of ballistic gel. Now that's not bad
at all, and with low recoil, follow up shots are easy. I have the right calibers for me, do you?
:dirol:
CharlesMorrison
Banned
Well said Cluznar... Well said.
Sent from behind enemy lines.
Sent from behind enemy lines.
mappow
New member
If I have to engage, God forbid, I want to throw the biggest chunks of lead I can possibly shoot. My choice is the .45 ACP SJHP. If I have to, I want to rip the biggest chunks of flesh, muscle and bone from the perp. I do believe the .45ACP has been proven over and over again through a multitudes of Wars and "Police Actions".
*
You choose your Caliber. I have mine.
*
Keep your powder dry and your training current.
*
You choose your Caliber. I have mine.
*
Keep your powder dry and your training current.
Rhino
New member
I absolutely subscribe to that same principle, which is why I carry a 45 as well. My wife also subscribes to the exact same 'bigger is better' principle, but she currently carries a 9mm because she can't effectively carry, handle and shoot anything larger. Bigger isn't better if it's too big for the shooter to handle and shoot well. Some people don't seem to understand that when we advise people to go with the largest caliber they can get, we don't mean a caliber that is too big for them to handle. The guy in the post from the other forum that was linked to create this thread here, seems to think shooters are guilty of doing that, at least on internet forums anyway. I don't find that to be the case at all. We may not be very effective at explaining it well every single time we talk about it, but we don't advise people to get guns that are too big for them to handle, and we do make that clear the overwhelming majority of the time.
Warrior1256
New member
It's like bowling, you bowl with the heaviest ball that you can competently handle. Although the heavier the ball to more the pin action if the ball is too heavy for you you are going to miss more pins than you knock down.
Same thing with bullet caliber.
Same thing with bullet caliber.
S&W645
NRA Life Member
Do you use a 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP bowling ball? :biggrin:
One thing to consider too, is try to shoot the same ammunition everytime. For example, Underwood ammo for my 357 SIG has more recoil than Winchester White Box. Sometimes I will be shooting for training, and through the magazine I have different ammo or dummy rounds to train myself.
But, point being, different ammo will throw your thought process off if not aware that it is there.
But, point being, different ammo will throw your thought process off if not aware that it is there.
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