Brandishing Legality?


LongRider

New member
Your interpretation of the law is incorrect you know everything than why ask the question
I posted the google search results as it appeared on their page. I thought any moron knew that Google is not 100% and throws up some fliers.

I posted the google search results as it appeared on their page. I thought any moron knew that Google is not 100% and throws up some fliers. I provided you with enough information for you to do your own research and confirm that my statement that open carry is legal in Washington State independent of just my say so. Instead of being appreciative and doing your own foot work you continue confirming your ignorance. Pointing out the one Google flier as if that that somehow proves your point

Based on case law, your interpretation of the law is incorrect. That is why Seattle Metro PD, Olympia PD, King County PD, Federal Way PD, Kent PD, Everett PD, Bellevue PD, Tacoma PD and yes Spokane PD all have training bulletins explaining how open carry is legal. I provided you with adequate information to verify that for yourself rather than be grateful you continue to spew your nonsense. Obviously you are an ingrate incapable of appreciating when someone does you a favor. You obviously don't want to know what the facts are you need to be right.
The fact remains that you are wrong and is easily provable with the information I gave you. Your interpretation of the law is incorrect.

Anytime you are willing to put your money where your mouth is I will do the footwork and prove that open carry is NOT illegal in the State of Washington.

So take your pick a case of ammo 500 rounds my choice against a case of ammo 500 rounds your choice.

Or an AR of my choice against an AR of your choice

Time to put up or shut up no more freebees
 

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Husky Girl

New member
Mr. Lupus,
I feel the need to jump in on this thread because I can see that you are frustrated and possibly confused about some of the legal terms we've been discussing. Let me begin by saying I have worked in LE for the last five years, all in Washington State. My precinct included SeaTac, Burien, White Center, etc. Before that, I lived in Pullman, WA, which is a smaller town but politically fairly similar to Spokane. Let me also say that my boyfriend is also LE. We both have CCWs (him for expediting purchases and me becuase I am no longer LE) and we both carry concealed.

Washington State is an "open-carry" state. This means that is is legal (i.e. no permit required) for a person to wear a firearm in the open, assuming they are following all the zoning laws. Brandishing is not the same as Open Carry. If you look closely at the brandishing law you quoted earlier, it says, "...in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons." Let's break it down - "...in a manner...that warrants alarm..." - is carrying a firearm securely in a holster a manner that warrants alarm? No. if you wandered around with an AR-15 strapped to your back, that's a different story. "...At a time and place..." - if you carry your gun to an anti-gun rally, people might have cause to feel that this warrants alarm. If you carry your gun around on your everyday business, it shoudl be no problem. Finally, I would say that the circumstances of your carry also make a difference. If you walk around angry or suspicious looking - if you attempt to hide or flaunt your weapon, you will warrant alarm. If you are acting normally, minding your own business, then you have no intent to intimidate or reasonably warrants alarm.

Now, discussion of the law and theory is one thing, but you have asked for personal experience. While I don't carry openly (I believe I am safer if I carry concealed), I have heard - and gone to - many 911 calls for people carrying weapons. Generally, one of these calls is always a 2 officer response (safety first). If the person carrying a weapon is simply walking down the street, minding their own business, then we would ask the reporting party why they called (were they threatened earlier? what was the person doing that caused them alarm?). If the RP says nothing, we MIGHT conduct a Terry stop on the individual (a brief - less than 15 min - detainment to determine ID) and if they had no warrants or felony convictions we would let them go. It does not take an hour to check a person's conviction status, nor would we have any reason to check on a permit - they don't need one to carry openly.

The few instances when open carry has resulted in more than just a quick (polite) chat are when a person is a convicted felon, has warrants, is not carrying safely (i.e. gun tucked in waistband with no holster) or has drawn the weapon at some point.

I hope this helps you out. I think you will find that most LEOs are very supportive of 2nd amendment rights, particularly when a citizen is willing to look at the police in a cooperative manner rather than an adversarial one. We would have a lot less to do if there were more citizens willing to take care of themselves.

Good luck and I hope this information helps.
Husky Girl
 

redboneshadow

Former Military Police
WA is an open carry state. I live in Seattle. What worries me is that phrase in the RCW that says if you alarm someone while open carrying you can be arrested. It is just another way the anti-gun nuts are trying to limit our rights through legislation. I could be in my yard with my gun on my side as i am all the time and if someone see's it and becomes "alarmed" and calls the police i can go to jail just because of their paranoia. That is the chink in the armor i think.
 
Had a situation here in PRHI. I was watering the lawn while OC (on my own property, legal according to HRS 134). One of the neighbors is very "anti", so she called the police to report a "man with a gun". Needless to say, several units responded as well as SSD (PRHI equivalent of SWAT). The initial responding officer didn't even notice my holstered Glock. Only after talking to the lady, did he approach and ask to see my "weapon". I asked how he wanted me to do this. Before he was able to answer, the lieutenant for the nearby substation arrived and informed him that I was "o.k.". (It's helps when you have a good working relationship with the supervisors at the local substation. :biggrin:) Anyway, the responding officer advised me that I was "free to go" and I continued watering my lawn.

After getting some info from the lady next door and advising her of the laws, the lieutenant came back to my house with a couple uniformed officers. They verified the registration of my pistol for their report, and checked my ID. I asked what this was all about, and the lieutenant informed me that this was training for the FTO in his substation. They were very professional and respectful, so I cooperated. We talked a bit about the laws and how things could be changed so this doesn't happen again. Part of the problem was with the way that the police dispatcher took the information from the lady. Questions like "is the gun in a holster" or "is he waving the gun around" weren't asked by the dispatcher. Had the dispatcher gotten more info like "do you know who the man is" or "what is he doing", the situation would have been handled a lot differently. All the officers got over the radio was a address and "Lady reports a man with a gun".

Since that incident, officers were called 2 or 3 more times (a lot of aniti-gun neighbors). Each time was a lot different from the first time. The officers responded and were very calm and cool with me. They addressed me by name and conducted themselves in a very professional manner. On one occasion, a rookie cop made a comment "you shouldn't be carrying a gun around". Before the FTO could say anything, I responded "If he neighborhood is so safe, then why do YOU carry a gun?" I got a confused look from the rookie, but no response to my question. The FTO advised him that I wasn't breaking any laws, but they were required to collect my personal info. I provided my identification, they made their report, and were on their way.



gf
 

LongRider

New member
WA is an open carry state. I live in Seattle. What worries me is that phrase in the RCW that says if you alarm someone while open carrying you can be arrested. It is just another way the anti-gun nuts are trying to limit our rights through legislation. I could be in my yard with my gun on my side as i am all the time and if someone see's it and becomes "alarmed" and calls the police i can go to jail just because of their paranoia. That is the chink in the armor i think.
Someone may call the police out of ignorance of the law but the police generally know that open carry is legal. There are several court cases in Washington that are very clear about open carry. That the alarmed clause means you must do something to cause alarm other than open carry. That the mere sight of a gun does not justify alarm. If you flash the gun, or put your hand on it or draw your actions would warrant alarm and qualify as brandishing but simply carrying does not. The PD training bulletins are an excellent resource for anyone who OP carries. I would download the ones that apply to the area that you open carry in and carry a copy at all times. IMO visiting Link Removed would be a good idea for anyone who open carries as it has all the info you need to be sure you have all the info you need.
As Gunny said in a much nicer way we have lots of idiots from other pansy liberal states living here that after a few years here think their rules apply and will call the police. We have seen one example here. So expect to have more encounters with LEO when you open carry the obviously need to check out every man with gun call. But even that is changing many dispatch operators know to ask what is he doing is the gun in a holster etc. If they are told that you are just open carrying dispatch will explain to them that is legal. Just like on message boards there are morons who refuse to get it and will keep calling the police. Am example is a woman who lives by Wrights Park in Tacoma who calls on the same guy on a regular basis. Eventually she got told the next call would get her cited for filing a false report or some such thing.
Anyway it is legal IMO we should all do so when we are up to it to help make it a more common sight so that people don't get their panties in a bunch over it and than the time will come when it is commonly accepted. Once again people will understand that normal every day law abiding people accept responsibility for their own safety and carry guns to defend themselves
 

LongRider

New member
Good luck and I hope this information helps.
Husky Girl
Dang girl what did I ever do to you? Why you want to throw a wrench into my bet. I might have been able to get some dummy to take me up on my bet in response to my rant. With your rational post they won't admit to being wrong but won't take the bet either. Joking :wink: sorta good post. How is school going? Kinda off topic but shouldn't your ex LEO status help with your being able to carry on campus?The same law that made it legal for an off duty SPD to carry in a bar in South Dakota should cover you on UW campus shouldn't it?
 

LongRider

New member
OK three is over the top I get it but am adding this to discount the lies misinformation and deception of any loopy lame lops that claim open carry is illegal in Washington State There was an open carry meeting at O'Learys' in Spokane on Saturday 10/04/ 08 and contrary to the lies spread on this thread no SWAT no arrests no problems. No pics of this get together but here is one form one of the first meetings
Link Removed
Note no SWAT police arrests or anyone losing their rights at that one either

For info about the last meeting see Link Removed. Sorry, for all the posts and rants but I have a real problem when idiots crown themselves experts and than proceed to tell bold faced anti lies despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary
 
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Husky Girl

New member
Dang girl what did I ever do to you? Why you want to throw a wrench into my bet. I might have been able to get some dummy to take me up on my bet in response to my rant. With your rational post they won't admit to being wrong but won't take the bet either. Joking :wink: sorta good post. How is school going? Kinda off topic but shouldn't your ex LEO status help with your being able to carry on campus?The same law that made it legal for an off duty SPD to carry in a bar in South Dakota should cover you on UW campus shouldn't it?
Sorry, I still figuring out this message board thing. I was trying to politely reply to Canis-Lupus, not get onto your case. Sorry no one took you up on your bet :) Ignorance and fear-mongering drives me crazy and only reinforces the misconception that gun-owners are all paranoid constitutionalists that hate law enforcement and the government.

In response to your question about my former LEO status qualifying me to carry - it doesn't. Since I quit instead of retired, I don't have retired LEO status (which allows me to carry the same as a working LEO) so I'm just a regular citizen with lots of training and a cynical outlook (hee hee). As for the off-duty SPD guy who was allowed to carry - most states have reciprocity for LEO's, so South Dakota probably considered him the same status as a South Dakota LEO.

UW is in the process of appointing a new Police Chief and one of the candidates is a Captain in my former dept. I'm hoping I can use my connections to get an exception made, but I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime, I am keeping my back to the wall and my eyes wide open.
 

LongRider

New member
Sorry it took so long to reply. Your post deserves a reply. I had to pause and wait before responding to your post. Absolutely amazed. Truly impressed by your genuine apology and retraction. One of the most stand up honorable things I have seen on a message board. Speaks volumes about your integrity and character. Thank you
Definitely apology accepted. Clean slate.
You experience is one of the reasons I am so adamant about people being correctly informed about open carry in our state. I have no doubt at all that it happened as you stated. Fact is there are police officers that use their authority to bully and intimidate people and force their beliefs and opinions on others. Thankfully they are few.
The down side of allowing them to do that is they succeed and we end up living in an environment where people honestly believe it is true and are intimidated by guns thinking they are tools of evil.
Others are genuinely misinformed. Both my wife and I have been drawn down on by LEO who did not know the law. That officer was chastised by his CO later and the whole department was given additional training concerning open carry. This is the very reason that I open carry. It is also why I open carry only when I am up to dealing with the potential hassle. IMO It is upon us to always conduct ourselves in a calm rational polite manner when we open carry, no matter what the Officer does. To do other wise defeats the whole purpose of OC which to me is to show people that normal everyday peace loving law abiding citizens carry guns. That we are no different than they are.
The point I am trying to make is the negative perceptions of open carry are ones we helped create by not open carrying. I have said this before my thought is that open carry is not about gaining favor some new mode of carry or establishing a new tradition. Rather it is about taking back ground we have lost. There was a time not so long ago when open carry was not frowned upon any more than we frown upon giggling pubescent girls and testosterone driven males operating two ton weapons of mass destruction because open carry was just as common as teenage drivers are today. It was a given that most people open carrying were average normal law abiding citizens because they were. I think that out of politeness and consideration for the sensibilities of others, less gun owners carried openly two things have resulted. One the antis have taken a kindness as a weakness and now expect that we bow down to their unreasonable fears. What was once a courtesy is an expectation. Even the courts have ruled that the fear reaction is unreasonable. Two because it is now an uncommon sight many including those of us who carry misinterpret the motives of those that open carry. Often alarmed by what was once a commonly accepted practice. In effect by not openly carrying we encourage some of the negative fear responses to all gun carry. So, my thought is if more people openly carried it would once again become a common sight and in time generate more acceptance of all kinds of carry
Link Removed is a wonderful resource for anyone who open carries. Lonnie Wilson did a great deal of research about our gun laws and open carry. The board is full of lawyers and LEO who help anyone out who has had their rights violated. One of the reasons that the training bulletins exist is several police departments have found it to be very expensive when they violate our second amendment rights. There are more than a few who have retired due to the donations given them by WA PD for violating their 2A rights.
In your case had you been prepared with the info from Link Removed you could have shown the officer the training bulletins from his department and the brochure with the court cases proving his interpretation of the law as incorrect. If he was genuinely ignorant of the law he would have learned his mistake and in the future would not needlessly harass another citizen. If he was a bully you would have been able to politely call his bluff. He would have known he picked on the wrong guy and shut his trap. Backing off knowing he was not dealing with a dummy he could push around and that his job was on the line. Open carry is 100% legal in Washington state. No one who can legally own a gun is in prison for OC in WA. If the police harass detain arrest or confiscate your gun for OC they can have and will be held accountable for breaking the law. Not to get into a big debate with you again but I do not believe there is anyone in prison nor are there any newspaper stories of people in prison or jail for open carry. If so please provide the links. My thought for you is to become part of the solution sign on at Link Removed share your story and have a BBQ of open carry folk out to your house have a couple of them after the first time I bet the neighbors will get a grip especially after LEO tells them to quit calling and wasting their time. They will stop whining about you too. They can either admit they were wrong or accept that seeing you open carry is better than having 20 open carry folks all over the neighborhood every time they whine about seeing your gun
Again thank you for the apology and explaining why you felt they way you did. Hopefully our debate has informed a few folks and encouraged them to not allow their rights to be trampled. Remember a right not used is a right lost
BTW great pic of the moose believe it or not my wife has a story of when she was about four on a camping trip, her brother beat her senseless because she walked up and touched a moose. Thankfully the moose freaked and ran off. Much to her chagrin her brother got rewarded for looking out for his sis rather than being punished
 
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Husky Girl

New member
Canis-Lupus,
Please tell me you aren't using the link you posted as evidence of Spokane's prejudice against open carry!?! I will grant you, the three armed men in the article were all arrested, but the first was arrested for allegedly using a gun in an assault, the second for waving a gun around, and the third for threatening a woman with his gun. I carry a gun to protect myself from people like the ones in your article!

I can tell you with 99% certainty that the reason you did not find an article describing "Fella walking down street with OC gun not brandishing or causing panic and after questioning was sent on his way." is because THERE IS NOTHING TO REPORT. That would be like writing a report that says, "Fella was driving down the road, obeying the speed limit." or "Lady purchased merchandise from store and paid in full." Why would you write a report about something completely legal?

Again, I think you need to take a close look at the actual laws of Washington state, not some paranoid misinterpretation of them. I promise, on the whole, the police are NOT out to "get" gun owners. They ARE gun owners, remember?
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
Visit the Washington forum on opencarry.org and you'll see that open carry is not only legal, but you'll also see that the members are discussing their experiences with it, both pleasant and unpleasant.
 
....Again, I think you need to take a close look at the actual laws of Washington state, not some paranoid misinterpretation of them. I promise, on the whole, the police are NOT out to "get" gun owners. They ARE gun owners, remember?


On what do you base this statement? Do officers in WA carry their own personal firearms for duty? All of the LE agencies I've worked with issue duty firearms to their officers. Supplimental or off-duty firearms are allowed, and these are often personally owned. Just because a LEO is carrying a firearm, doesn't necessarily mean that they own it.



gf
 

LongRider

New member
Sorry, I still figuring out this message board thing. I was trying to politely reply to Canis-Lupus, not get onto your case. Sorry no one took you up on your bet :) Ignorance and fear-mongering drives me crazy and only reinforces the misconception that gun-owners are all paranoid constitutionalists that hate law enforcement and the government.
Was just giving you a hard time. Teasing ya know, just gotta do it can't help myself especially when my meds are low.:wacko: I think Canis is coming around just having a hard time getting his head wrapped around it. After believing the exact opposite is true for so long. My wife almost quit carrying when the one LEO drew down on her finger on the trigger because he saw her gun sitting in the car, even though we had notified him. So I get it.

UW is in the process of appointing a new Police Chief and one of the candidates is a Captain in my former dept. I'm hoping I can use my connections to get an exception made, but I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime, I am keeping my back to the wall and my eyes wide open.
As I recall you use public transportation so leaving a gun in the car is not an option. Have you considered a non lethal weapon? Seems to me that with your baton training a cane would be an excellent weapon. More than capable of giving a good beat down in seconds. Just be sure to select a weapons cane not some pretty cedar walking stick
 

LongRider

New member
officers in WA carry their own personal firearms for duty?
Depends of what PD you are talking about. I am not sure what the exact policy is but you see a wide variety of handguns being carried. Including some very nice custom 1911. Couple of old guys still carry revolvers. So either they are carrying their own or they are given a budget to get a gun.
 

Husky Girl

New member
You are both correct (as far as I know). In the departments I am familiar with, officers are issued department firearms, but they are also allowed to qualify with their personally-owned firearms and carry them as back-up or undercover guns. Even if they don't technically own their department-issued guns, they still take them home every day, clean them, and care for them (supposedly). All of the guys I know consider their department guns to be "their" guns. I mean, technically, my boyfriend's name is the only one on the deed to our house, but I live here, I clean the house, I do regular maintenance, I've painted the walls, etc. It's "my" house, whether I legally own it or not. I think the comparison is the same for officers. While they may not technically own their department-issued gun, that's the item they depend on to save their lives. It's easy to get attached to something like that. Add to that the fact that I've never met a cop who had only his department issued firearms, and I think it's a fairly safe bet to refer to cops as "gun-owners."

The point I was really trying to make is that there is no reason to have such an adversarial point of view of law enforcement. I've run into this time and again, the more involved I get with other gun-owners/supporters. When I began school, I found an organization called "Students for Concealed Carry" and I was thrilled. Here would be a bunch of students like me - people who wanted to be responsible for their own welfare, who didn't want to depend on others to save them from the worst humanity throws out there. So I contacted the president of this group and asked him to meet me for coffee. After a bit of discussion, I realized that he wasn't interested in personal responsibility, he wanted to make a statement! He recounted incident after incident where he had confrontations with campus police, where he had demanded to speak to supervisors and shoved print-outs of laws and rights in their faces. When I asked him what he had done to improve his group's relationship with PD, he said he had contacted a Captain to complain about several officers and that the Captain had agreed to provide more training to his men.

I just have a really hard time with this sort of "us against them" mentality. I guess the fact that I know so many police officers, and count them among my close friends, probably gives me a different perspective than most, but I can't imagine that there are that many "bad" cops out there that police should really have this reputation as constantly stomping on the rights of individuals. When I told my partners that I was going back to school, every one of them expressed concern over my safety. They asked if I would still carry when I went to school. When I said it was against University Policy, they suggested that it only mattered if I got caught, and wouldn't it be better to be expelled than dead? Does this sound like the kind of people that want to take away someone's right to carry a gun?

In so many of these confrontational incidents, I find that the non-law enforcement individual is usually the one who starts out with a misconception about the police, not the other way around. Now, before everyone jumps on me - yes, I know some cops will draw on you if you are carrying, I know some police will overreact to open carry. I'm not trying to say they won't, all I'm trying to say is if we look at things from their perspective, and we maybe try to find what we have in common with the police rather than what separates us from them, maybe we could have a more mutually beneficial relationship. Wouldn't it be great if the police felt comfortable enough to publically endorse groups like this one? Wouldn't it be nice if we could have police officers and private gun-owners working together to educate the public on laws and gun safety?

I know I sound like an idealist, and I am, but it's just something to think about the next time you see a police officer. Make a new friend!
 

wuzfuz

New member
Brandishing Legality

Thank you, Husky Girl for cogent, on the spot posts. This post will be a compendium of things about different things.
First is the question of whether officers carry their own weapons. The department I worked for in Arizona, the deputies carried their own weapons the entire time I worked there. We had to carry .38/.357 revolvers from an approved list and had to be inspected by the department armorer. Later we were allowed to carry semiauto pistols, for which we had to purchase holsters and other gear. After I left the department, the department put everyone through training and issued Beretta 92s. Back-up weapons were always allowed, but had to pass inspection. Arizona was always an Open Carry state, and when they put in the CCW laws, you were required to inform any police officer you had contact with that you had a permit and were carrying. One hint, never blurt out, "I have a gun." Very sticky situation. I was helping a friend locate some strange .38 ammo for an old French revolver (unsuccessfully) and the Sporting Goods manager at the Lacey WalMart made the statement that it was illegal to carry a weapon in Washington unless you had a permit. I ran off a copy of the applicable law, and opened his eyes to the fact that Washington is an Open Carry state.
 

golddigger14s

SFC At Fort Lewis, WA
I almost alway OC here in WA, and have never had a negative incident. I do have a CPL also so I don't have to remove and unload when I get in the car. Also I invite you all to come to the 2nd Amendment Rally at the Olympia State Capital on April 30th at 10am. Again go to OCDO web site:
Link Removed
 

golddigger14s

SFC At Fort Lewis, WA
I was helping a friend locate some strange .38 ammo for an old French revolver (unsuccessfully) and the Sporting Goods manager at the Lacey WalMart made the statement that it was illegal to carry a weapon in Washington unless you had a permit. I ran off a copy of the applicable law, and opened his eyes to the fact that Washington is an Open Carry state.

Suprised to hear that, I live about 300 feet away from that Walmart and OC in there all the time. An employee in sporting goods once stopped me, but only to ask if it was a Ruger cause it looked like his.
 

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