ATF Valentine's Day Massacre - Say Goodbye to M855 Ammo (and others too)

[BluesStringer]

Apparently, there has been an increase (? - nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin'

) in the number of cop shootings with 5.56 armor piercing ammo from handguns that the ATF decided the M855 steel-core bullet is now a threat to cops so great that it falls under the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act of 1986 (LEOPA).

Read ATF's "justification" for the action here:

ATF FRAMEWORK FOR DETERMINING WHETHER CERTAIN PROJECTILES ARE “PRIMARILY INTENDED FOR SPORTING PURPOSES” WITHIN THE MEANING OF 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C)

 

[alternety]

This would appear to be a significant danger to ammunition availability in the long run. They have taken a rifle round and argued it into oblivion based on the idea that someone could get what is essentially a cut down rifle. It is an incredibly dangerous move to allow ATF to generate and enforce such a classification. It is a simple "administrative" action to widen this to 7.62 X 39 and other ammunition that is widely dependent (for price and availability) on imported or (for the .223 domestic) surplus ammunition. It is simple, and not uncommon, to build a "pistol" version of an AK or other sorts of long guns. I don't have any idea how much surplus ammo has a steel core, but it seems that there is a fair amount of 7.62 x 39.

The steel (or other solid cores) are not specifically sought out by a lot of people. Many probably don't even realize (or care) their relatively inexpensive ammunition has an AP capable core. But fortunately this ruling does keep really dangerous ammunition out of the hands of common law abiding citizens (that would, of course, not apply to criminals).

 

[bofh]

Interesting take on this:

 

[JimTh]

This move by the ATF at the behest of the white house is merely a back door they are trying to open. This ban is not about AP ammunition as shown in the youtube video as a simple 223 round will punch through class 3a armor. Wake up America!

 

[BigSlick]

The M855 is not a steel core bullet. The core is mostly lead while only the tip is made of steel. M955 is an all steel core with a copper jacket. Personally, I prefer the M193 in my carbine. I guess my stock of M855 and SS109 ammo will go up if this bullsh&t ban goes through.

 

[S&W645]

I think I need to add another 1000 rounds to the stock of ammo that I'd own if I owned any guns. But note they are just fine with the .30-06 AP rounds.

Another stupid ruling that does nothing to the criminal class but does affect the law abiding class. And now I'd like to ask BATFE, "How many officers have been shot by criminals using handguns using 5.56mm or .223Rem? " Is this more along the lines of ban AR-15s even though rifles are used less often than blunt force attacks?

 

[BigSlick]

I think I need to add another 1000 rounds to the stock of ammo that I'd own if I owned any guns. But note they are just fine with the .30-06 AP rounds.

Another stupid ruling that does nothing to the criminal class but does affect the law abiding class. And now I'd like to ask BATFE, "How many officers have been shot by criminals using handguns using 5.56mm or .223Rem? " Is this more along the lines of ban AR-15s even though rifles are used less often than blunt force attacks?

I believe this is just a backdoor attack on the 2nd A. If they can't get the guns then making the ammo harder to come by would be the next best thing. If Obummer can't get the guns then he will cut off the ammo supply. This is exactly how our rights are taken away, one baby step at a time. If this passes then 7.62x39 could be next. I have mixed lots of M855 and SS109 I purchased years ago. Still have about ???? rounds left (I'm not really going to tell Obummer how much I have). If this round becomes restricted, no telling what they could become worth when the supply runs out. I have mostly been using federal .223 50gr HP's and M193's plus some reloads and honestly can't tell that much difference. The federal .223's seem a little hotter if that makes any sense. The M855 does do better against some steel that I have practiced with but has little to no energy left after passing through. The HP round is more impressive on a 1 gallon water jug than the M855. For me defending my home I would use the HP rounds but I'm going to keep the M855 just because they say I can't have them.

 

[billt]

Is the NRA, or any other pro gun legal organization, mounting a legal challenge against this? I looked, but have not heard of any. It would appear they sat still and allowed the 5.56 AK ammo to be banned, so the ATF most likely figured, what the hell, and went after this. Unless this is legally challenged, and SOON, this course of action will more than likely continue. Obama, along with his band of cronies, have no respect for anything involving Constitutional law..... Or any other kind for that matter.

.

If this proves anything, it proves there is zero "common sense" to any of their "common sense gun control laws".

 

[S&W645]

I believe this is just a backdoor attack on the 2nd A. If they can't get the guns then making the ammo harder to come by would be the next best thing. If Obummer can't get the guns then he will cut off the ammo supply. This is exactly how our rights are taken away, one baby step at a time. If this passes then 7.62x39 could be next. I have mixed lots of M855 and SS109 I purchased years ago. Still have about ???? rounds left (I'm not really going to tell Obummer how much I have). If this round becomes restricted, no telling what they could become worth when the supply runs out. I have mostly been using federal .223 50gr HP's and M193's plus some reloads and honestly can't tell that much difference. The federal .223's seem a little hotter if that makes any sense. The M855 does do better against some steel that I have practiced with but has little to no energy left after passing through. The HP round is more impressive on a 1 gallon water jug than the M855. For me defending my home I would use the HP rounds but I'm going to keep the M855 just because they say I can't have them.

Yep! But there may be a way to challenge this. As the Supreme Court in 1939 banned sawed off shotguns as not being military use guns, banning military style ammo is also in that same category. The SCOTUS opened the door back then to get the GCA thrown out now. The BATFE has no data to back their unconstitutional ruling if it does forward.

 

[BluesStringer]

I think I need to add another 1000 rounds to the stock of ammo that I'd own if I owned any guns. But note they are just fine with the .30-06 AP rounds.

Another stupid ruling that does nothing to the criminal class but does affect the law abiding class. And now I'd like to ask BATFE, "How many officers have been shot by criminals using handguns using 5.56mm or .223Rem? " Is this more along the lines of ban AR-15s even though rifles are used less often than blunt force attacks?

Rhetorical question, right?

 

[bofh]

Interesting argument: Link Removed.

...

But would the proposed hypothetical even save lives if it were implemented?

No, it wouldn’t.

It would actually serve to increase the risk to law enforcement officers, by forcing rifle and pistol users alike to return exclusively to the full-metal-jacketed 55-grain M193 round that NATO wanted to get away from in the 1970s with the adoption of the very SS109/M855 cartridge that Obama’s ATF is attempting to ban.

Yes, the proposed ATF ban would return everyone to the round NATO said was too “inhumane” for use against expected waves of Soviet troops because it caused “devastating” wounds. It appears Obama’s ATF cares more about the survival of Soviet infantry than they do American law enforcement officers.

...

 

[gunnerbob]

Makes me wonder when they're going to get around to banning the steel-cased, bi-metal jacket stuff from Russia and other nations. After all, those projectiles are manufactured with a steel jacket coated with copper. Going off of the definitions the BATF is using for AP rounds, this wouldn't be a far stretch to make.

 

[longslide10]

Well it's not banned yet. We all better speak up!

In a move clearly intended by the Obama Administration to suppress the acquisition, ownership and use of AR-15s and other .223 caliber general purpose rifles, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives unexpectedly announced today that it intends to ban commonplace M855 ball ammunition as “armor piercing ammunition.” The decision continues Obama’s use of his executive authority to impose gun control restrictions and bypass Congress.

BATFE is accepting comments until March 16, 2015 on this indefensible attempt to disrupt ammunition for the most popular rifle in America. Check back early next week for a more in-depth analysis of this “framework” and details on how you can submit comments.


How to comment – from the BATFE

ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments. Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):

ATF email: [email protected]

Fax: (202) 648-9741.

Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Denise Brown, Enforcement Programs and Services, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, U.S. Department of Justice, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226; telephone: (202) 648-7070.


https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150213/batfe-to-ban-common-ar-15-ammo

 

[gunnerbob]

Does anybody really think the BATF gives a sh!t what we have to say on the matter?

 

[BluesStringer]

Does anybody really think the BATF gives a sh!t what we have to say on the matter?

Not me. My guess is that the BATFE has a couple of auto-actions set on their email servers for anything coming in on this subject. One is an auto-forward to some fusion center run by DHS and/or NSA where email addys will be matched with real names and physical addresses for future use, and the second is an auto-delete, period. No ATF agent or policy maker or even any of their secretaries will ever read anything that comes in on this subject. The N R A-ILA is just playing their role as the controlled opposition with that nonsense. That page is a membership-drive/fund-raising page, period. N R A doesn't do crap for gun owners.

Blues

 

[S&W645]

Rhetorical question, right?

You guessed her, Chester.

 

[longslide10]

Does anybody really think the BATF gives a sh!t what we have to say on the matter?

They have before. Do you just wanna throw your hands in the air then and give up?


https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/gun-control-act-definition-ammunition

Armor piercing ammunition

18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(17)(B)

A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/a...and-why-green-tip-m855-is-not-armor-piercing/


What does all that mean?

A few things to take note of is that the classification as “armor piercing” is for bullets only, not the complete cartridge. Despite the mention of handgun caliber above, you can take that to mean that it’s a round that has been made as a handgun caliber at some point.

The bullet (projectile) must also have a core made entirely out of the metals listed above, or be a full jacketed bullet with a jacket weighing more than 25% of its overall weight. This means that the SS109/M855 bullets wouldn’t be covered, as their cores are partly steel, and partly lead. Lead isn’t listed in the metals above. Furthermore, as you’ll see in the list below, the ATF has specifically stated that the SS109/M855 bullets are exempted from AP status.
ATF AP Classified Rounds

All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core
German made 9mm Para. with steel core
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (not copper)
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core
7.62×39 ammo with steel core bullets

ATF Exempted Rounds

5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo

Hopefully that clears up some confusion for you like it did for me. You can rest easy that when a range calls for no AP rounds that you’ll be safe using M855 if desired.

 

[S&W645]

They have before. Do you just wanna throw your hands in the air then and give up?


https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/gun-control-act-definition-ammunition

Armor piercing ammunition

18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(17)(B)

A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

Military Ammunition and Why Green Tip M855 is Not Armor Piercing : ITS Tactical


What does all that mean?

A few things to take note of is that the classification as “armor piercing” is for bullets only, not the complete cartridge. Despite the mention of handgun caliber above, you can take that to mean that it’s a round that has been made as a handgun caliber at some point.

The bullet (projectile) must also have a core made entirely out of the metals listed above, or be a full jacketed bullet with a jacket weighing more than 25% of its overall weight. This means that the SS109/M855 bullets wouldn’t be covered, as their cores are partly steel, and partly lead. Lead isn’t listed in the metals above. Furthermore, as you’ll see in the list below, the ATF has specifically stated that the SS109/M855 bullets are exempted from AP status.
ATF AP Classified Rounds

All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core
German made 9mm Para. with steel core
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (not copper)
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core
7.62×39 ammo with steel core bullets

ATF Exempted Rounds

5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo

Hopefully that clears up some confusion for you like it did for me. You can rest easy that when a range calls for no AP rounds that you’ll be safe using M855 if desired.

Hate to disagree with you Longslide but the M855 is exactly what is covered. Even quoted in your post.

projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

They have taken the stand that because the M855 has a steel tip that it is part of the core under the "combination" part. They are wrong but that is their stand. As stated in their notice.

Some ammunition that was previously exempted as “primarily intended to be used for
sporting purposes,” specifically 5.56mm constituent projectiles of SS109 and M855 cartridges,
will again be regulated as “armor piercing ammunition.”

 

[bofh]

FYI: Link Removed

M855 is not “constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium”.

Also, M855 isn’t “designed or intended for use in a handgun”, its jacket is “less than 25% of the weight of the projectile”, and it’s debatable whether .223 can be called “larger than .22 caliber.”

M855 simply does not meet the legal standard to be classified as armor piercing ammunition. The BAFTE certainly knows that and either counts on not being legally challenged on a ban, or aims at driving up ammo prices by proposing a ban.

 

[gunnerbob]

With such speak of more ammunition bans and 2016 right around the corner, IMO, you can bet your @ss on there being another ammo run/shortage. Part of me wants to say "get it while the gettin' is good" but, that may just start the next run-on/shortage prematurely or needlessly.