ATF requires you to have a domicile?

[Blueshell]

I went to Cabella's yesterday to trade a gun and put it towards a Sig p320. After arranging the trade, finishing form 4473, picking out a new holster and a couple hundred rounds of 9mm, all that was left was for a manager to double check the paperwork, swipe my debt card and I would be out the door.

The manager refused the sale because she didn't like the address on my driver's license.

I've been a 'traveler' for years due to my job, I do not maintain a domicile; ie I do not have a regular apartment or house to which I return every day. The address on my driver's licence, Home of Record with the Army, the address on my carry permits, fishing permits, car registration...literally everything...is a UPS store in my home city where I receive mail.

The Cabella's manager claimed that the ATF requires me to report where they can physically go to find me, where to send a cop if they need to. So firstly, no such place exists. Where I sleep and do laundry will change weekly. Secondly, having don my own research on this, I can find no such requirement from the ATF. The ATF requires that I show the FFL a valid ID and have a current physical address, which I do have and did show. I can find nothing from the ATF stating they require a gun purchaser to 'maintain a domicile'.

My local DMV has many licensed drivers who are travelers or RV'ers and use a UPS store, RV park office or similar place as their 'physical address'. DMV requires, in addition to the usual 2 pieces of mail, a notarized affidavit of residency, in order to list such an address on an ID or license. I've bought, sold and pawned several guns since obtaining my present UPS store address and this has never been a problem. While I would like to believe the Cabella's manager was simply misinformed, this has me worried.

Any information you have on this issue would be most helpful.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Federal regulations (27 CFR 478.11) require you to provide an identification document or combination of documents that contains:

Identification document. A document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State, a foreign government, political subdivision of a foreign government, an international governmental or an international quasi–governmental organization which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.

So, what would you say the address is of where you reside? Do you reside at the UPS store?

Also, read ATF Rule 2001-5:
https://www.atf.gov/file/83651/download

ATF has received questions from licensees regarding purchasers who present a State-issued driver's license or other identification document that shows either an out-of-date residence address or a mailing address (such as a post office box) in lieu of a residence address. ATF has advised that these identification documents, standing alone, would not satisfy the requirements of the regulations implementing the Brady Act.

 

[Blueshell]

Federal regulations (27 CFR 478.11) require you to provide an identification document or combination of documents that contains:



So, what would you say the address is of where you reside? Do you reside at the UPS store?

Also, read ATF Rule 2001-5:
https://www.atf.gov/file/83651/download

I don't 'reside' anywher, strictly speaking. Where I sleep changes faster than I could have mail sent in order to change my licence.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I don't 'reside' anywher, strictly speaking. Where I sleep changes faster than I could have mail sent in order to change my licence.

Then I guess you can't buy firearms from FFLs and comply with the regulations, although you can probably slip by a few FFLs who aren't checking closely. [SARC]But that's just "reasonable regulation" of the 2nd Amendment and not infringement.[/SARC] Depending on what state you are living in at the moment and state laws, private sales/transfers without FFL involvement would be legal.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.11

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1.

A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2.

A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

While you are a resident of the state you are sleeping in at the time, by definition, you just can't provide the required proof of that to the FFL.

 

[Blueshell]

Then I guess you can't buy firearms from FFLs and comply with the regulations, although you can probably slip by a few FFLs who aren't checking closely.

I have reason to believe that's not true. FFLs have asked about my UPS store a dress before, and when I explained that I was an RV'er whose work made me travel, they were good with that.

Of a couple dozen firearms transfers I've don since getting this adress, this is the first time my adress was a problem. The norm is for FFLs to accept it because it is my legal resident adress even though not literaly where I live. I've even perchesed firearms, with that adress, from the same FFL who just refused me.

The Army accepted my adress. The IRS accepted my adress. A few states of which I hold non-resident carry permits with accepted my adress.

This morning I went to Scheels, whom I've bought guns from before, made the trade and bought the Sig. I'm going to the range shortly to put a few hundred rounds through the addition to my family

I do get why an FFL might not want to do the transfer, though.

 

[JeanP]

I, recently, was in a ****'s Sporting Goods store in our county. The young man in front of me lived in Carmel, CA where they do not have mail delivery or addresses on their homes (in the old part of town). He was a renter and his landlord payed all utilities. He had a post office box as his address. In Carmel, your physical goes something like this "2 houses west of the corner of A & B streets on the north side of the street". In other words, you follow directions if you want to visit someone there. Needless to say, ****'s wouldn't sell him his rifle. He had a DL, and a US Passport. Not good enough.

 

[NavyLCDR]

It all depends on how much "chance" the FFL is willing to take with the ATF and how knowledgeable (or not) the person is behind the counter who is going to accept the form 4473. As long as you are 100% truthful and accurate on the form 4473, you are off the hook - EXCEPT.... it is your signature that is certifying that you reside at a UPS store. But, at the same time, only STATE of residence really matters as far as the legality of the sale in regards to residency. If the UPS store address and the physical location where you were sleeping were in two different states, that could make the sale actually illegal.

 

[Blueshell]

It all depends on how much "chance" the FFL is willing to take with the ATF and how knowledgeable (or not) the person is behind the counter who is going to accept the form 4473. As long as you are 100% truthful and accurate on the form 4473, you are off the hook - EXCEPT.... it is your signature that is certifying that you reside at a UPS store. But, at the same time, only STATE of residence really matters as far as the legality of the sale in regards to residency. If the UPS store address and the physical location where you were sleeping were in two different states, that could make the sale actually illegal.

There's a difference between what your residence is and where you actualy reside. Even though I worked in Oklahoma the entire year of 2013, I paid no Oklahoma income taxes because I was the resident of another state and paid income taxes to that state.....even though I didn't step foot in that state the whole year.

I used my father's adress before the UPS store even though I didn't live there. My local church invites homeless to use their adress, even no one lives on the property.

So, no, I'm not saying I live at the UPS store, I'm saying that's my adress. I'm not saying I reside at the UPS store, I'm saying that's my legal residence. There's a big difference between the two.

 

[NavyLCDR]

There's a difference between what your residence is and where you actualy reside. Even though I worked in Oklahoma the entire year of 2013, I paid no Oklahoma income taxes because I was the resident of another state and paid income taxes to that state.....even though I didn't step foot in that state the whole year.

I used my father's adress before the UPS store even though I didn't live there. My local church invites homeless to use their adress, even no one lives on the property.

So, no, I'm not saying I live at the UPS store, I'm saying that's my adress. I'm not saying I reside at the UPS store, I'm saying that's my legal residence. There's a big difference between the two.

Your interpretation of state of residence and residence address is different than the way Title 27 Code of Federal Regulations (27 CFR) and Title 18 of United States Code (18 USC) is written and how it is interpreted by the BATFE. The clerk at Cabella's was complying with ATF rules and interpretations of CFR. The important thing is the actual CFR was posted in post #4, the ATF's distinction between a mailing address and a residence address was posted in #2. The CFR is written, and the BATFE interpretation is that your state and address of residence is the physical location where you sleep with the intention of making a home at that location (even temporary) for some other reason than just vacationing. The only exception is contained in 18 USC 921 where there is a provision that an active duty military member may have a different state of residence if their duty station is located in a different state than where they sleep at night.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-constitutes-residency-state

What constitutes residency in a State?

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained.

Another example:
https://www.atf.gov/file/55301/download

27 C.F.R. 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS

An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term.

ATF Rul. 80-21
[Status of ruling: Active]

The Bureau has been asked to determine the State of residence of out-of-State college students for purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968. “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 C.F.R. 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.

Applying the above example to out-of- State college students it is held, that during the time the students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location they are considered residents of the State where the dormitory or off-campus home is located. During the time out-of-State college students actually reside in their home State they are considered residents of their home State.

During the time that you worked in Oklahoma and slept in Oklahoma between shifts, your state of residence - for the purposes of firearms transactions - was Oklahoma and your residence address would have been the physical location where you slept between shifts.

Anyway - it's your signature on the form 4473 and if you can get the FFL to buy off on it, more power to you.

 

[Blueshell]

During the time that you worked in Oklahoma and slept in Oklahoma between shifts, your state of residence - for the purposes of firearms transactions - was Oklahoma and your residence address would have been the physical location where you slept between shifts.

I tried to buy a handgun while in Oklahoma and the FFL wouldn't let me walk out with it because I wasn't an Oklahoma resident. He said he would have to mail the handgun to an FFL in my state of residence and I would have to pick it up there. That I lived and worked in Oklahoma didn't matter.

Residing in a place doesn't make it your residence. This is what the law is saying. I know what the words mean and yes, my head is going to explode just reading my own posts, but the law doesn't reflect reality.

If it did then the ATF would realize that sound supressors are not firearms.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I tried to buy a handgun while in Oklahoma and the FFL wouldn't let me walk out with it because I wasn't an Oklahoma resident. He said he would have to mail the handgun to an FFL in my state of residence and I would have to pick it up there.

That I lived and worked in Oklahoma didn't matter. Residing in a place doesn't make it your residence.

The reason was because you didn't present a government issued document proving Oklahoma residence. You wanted to keep paying taxes in the previous state so I would assume you never got an Oklahoma Driver's License which was required by Oklahoma state law.

 

[Blueshell]

The reason was because you didn't present a government issued document proving oklahoma residence.

Right, because Oklahoma wasn't my state of residence. I just worked there, I never tried to make a home there. One word from the boss and I was on the road to another state by the end of the week. The whole thing is highly temporary, depending on the length of the spicific job and where in the country people needed.

When I was active duty and was ping-ponged allover the country (probably why I like the traveling lifestyle now), my state of residence wasn't where I litersly, phisicaly resided, either.

It's like how a company can be based out of one state but have no actual work beyond the office within that same state.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Right, because Oklahoma wasn't my state of residence. I just worked there, I never tried to make a home there.

When I was active duty and was ping-ponged allover the country (probably why I like the traveling lifestyle now), my state of residence wasn't where I litersly, phisicaly resided, either.

Like I said, your interpretation of residence address is different than the ATF's and that is why you have had issues buying firearms at two different FFLs now. Have a good day.

 

[Blueshell]

Like I said, your interpretation of residence address is different than the ATF's and that is why you have had issues buying firearms at two different FFLs now. Have a good day.

My interpretation is not different from the ATF's. In fact the ATF has never had a problem with my adresses. The ATF wants a legal residence and I have plenty of documents proving a legal residence.

The gun sale was not refused by the ATF. The ATF nor any FFL has ever contacted me with a problem, and I know for a fact that some of the FFLs I've used this adress with were audited.

The problem was this one manager. I understand now why she didn't want to proceed with the sale, so I'm not mad at her. If I had a friend's adress on my license no one would bat an eye even though I don't live there. So the issue isn't where I live, either. The issue was that my adress can reasonably seem to be PO box and she didn't want to deal with it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The issue was that my adress can reasonably seem to be PO box and she didn't want to deal with it.

Not that you will care, but others might:
https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

Form 4473, page 4 of 6 (instructions):

Question 2. Current Residence Address: U.S. Postal abbreviations are acceptable. (e.g., St., Rd., Dr., PA, NC, etc.). Address cannot be a post office box. County and Parish are one and the same.

Once again, while you think you can reside at a PO Box in a UPS store - the ATF says no.

 

[Blueshell]

Not that you will care, but others might:
https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download

Form 4473, page 4 of 6 (instructions):



Once again, while you think you can reside at a PO Box in a UPS store - the ATF says no.

I have a PO box, too. The UPS adress is not a PO box. It's the phisical adress of the facility. I also have a noterized copy of the contract allowing me to use their adress, an afidavit of residency in my state, IRS tax forms with this adress, Army documents with this adress, car registration with this adress, and nuberous other documents.

DMV does not accept PO boxes for licenses. They accepted my UPS store adress knowing full well it was a UPS store and that I, obviously, didn't live there, because 'travelers' still have to have a state of residence and a phisical adress within that state.

It is my legal adress. Using it on for 4473 is perfectly legal.

I now understand why this one individual didn't want to proceed using my adress. I'm fine with that.

I took my buisness to Scheels and put a couple hundred rounds through my new Sig p320c 9mm this morning. I absolutely love this gun.

 

[Blueshell]

It sorta feels like we're beating a dead horse here. Thank you, everyone, for your input

 

[ardvietvet]

I went to Cabella's yesterday to trade a gun and put it towards a Sig p320. After arranging the trade, finishing form 4473, picking out a new holster and a couple hundred rounds of 9mm, all that was left was for a manager to double check the paperwork, swipe my debt card and I would be out the door.

The manager refused the sale because she didn't like the address on my driver's license.

I've been a 'traveler' for years due to my job, I do not maintain a domicile; ie I do not have a regular apartment or house to which I return every day. The address on my driver's licence, Home of Record with the Army, the address on my carry permits, fishing permits, car registration...literally everything...is a UPS store in my home city where I receive mail.

The Cabella's manager claimed that the ATF requires me to report where they can physically go to find me, where to send a cop if they need to. So firstly, no such place exists. Where I sleep and do laundry will change weekly. Secondly, having don my own research on this, I can find no such requirement from the ATF. The ATF requires that I show the FFL a valid ID and have a current physical address, which I do have and did show. I can find nothing from the ATF stating they require a gun purchaser to 'maintain a domicile'.

My local DMV has many licensed drivers who are travelers or RV'ers and use a UPS store, RV park office or similar place as their 'physical address'. DMV requires, in addition to the usual 2 pieces of mail, a notarized affidavit of residency, in order to list such an address on an ID or license. I've bought, sold and pawned several guns since obtaining my present UPS store address and this has never been a problem. While I would like to believe the Cabella's manager was simply misinformed, this has me worried.

Any information you have on this issue would be most helpful.

The ATF requires a physical address to purchase a firearm from a FFL,suggest you use the actual address where you sleep on your drivers license,get a new license or state ID with a picture.

 

[S&W645]

Take a water bill or electric bill from the city or county with you showing the street address, your name, and your D/L with you. Even if the mailing address is different from the physical address it is valid for the ID requirement. Or at least that is what the local BATFE agents told us.

 

[Blueshell]

Take a water bill or electric bill from the city or county with you showing the street address, your name, and your D/L with you. Even if the mailing address is different from the physical address it is valid for the ID requirement. Or at least that is what the local BATFE agents told us.

I have no physical address. No utility is in my name. There is no physical location that I return to at the end of the day; I often just rotate which truck stop I park my car and sleep at. The address on my licence, may carry permits, my car registration, my insurance, the Veteran's Administration, etc, is a UPS store.