At What Point Does Safety Become Overkill?

Treo

Treo

Bullet Proof
I was watching a sit com on T.V. the other night. In one scene the main character was shown holding an M1911A1. The pistol was clearly shown and the hammer was down. Rendering the firearm incapable of firing.

The next day I looked on facebook and sure enough some "Gun Guru" was raising Hell because the actor violated rule three (for the NRA purists among us I am refering to Jeff Cooper's four rules not the NRA's)

Frequently I see people raising Hell on THR because some one takes a picture of a weapon in which the weapon is pointed straight at the camera (Rule two)

IMO the rules were never meant to take the place of your thinking and they can be taken too far (If you don't believe me start a thread on rule one and see how many posts you get before someone states rule one applies to disassembled firearms.)

Am I wrong? must the rules be followed to the letter at all times?

What say you?
 
Clearly, common sense must prevail.

Treo said:
I was watching a sit com on T.V. the other night. In one scene the main character was shown holding an M1911A1. The pistol was clearly shown and the hammer was down. Rendering the firearm incapable of firing.

The next day I looked on facebook and sure enough some "Gun Guru" was raising Hell because the actor violated rule three (for the NRA purists among us I am refering to Jeff Cooper's four rules not the NRA's)

Frequently I see people raising Hell on THR because some one takes a picture of a weapon in which the weapon is pointed straight at the camera (Rule two)

IMO the rules were never meant to take the place of your thinking and they can be taken too far (If you don't believe me start a thread on rule one and see how many posts you get before someone states rule one applies to disassembled firearms.)

Am I wrong? must the rules be followed to the letter at all times?

What say you?
Click to expand...

In the case of movie props - I would hope they were rendered inoperative, say, by removal of the firing pin and blocking of the chamber. OR that they were replica arms, designed to shoot only blanks (in which case the barrel would be blocked anyway, to allow the blowback action to operate the gun.) Factual accuracy does not have to be sacrificed for safety; you just need a director or consultant or whoever, to be knowledgeable about how guns work.

As to photography - I've griped at a few people on Facebook etc (mostly girls posing with their bf's guns) who posed with finger on trigger. But again, for movie posters or whatever...INOPERATIVE PROPS so you don't have to sacrifice the dramatic effect in the name of safety.

Now, back to real life. There are plenty of situations where common sense just has to prevail, and the rules should be obeyed in spirit if not in letter. Here are a couple of examples:

1) If you are staying in a large hotel, in an interior room (ie no outside-facing walls) and on a middle floor (ie rooms above and below you)...then there literally is NO safe direction to point your firearm. So when you are handling it, particularly loading or unloading, you have to consider your surroundings, and decide what is the SAFEST direction to point.

2) If you are in a crowded and well-staffed gun store, looking at a gun you are considering purchasing, it once again may be difficult to find a safe direction. Make sure to double and triple check that the firearm is unloaded. Then there's the issue of inspecting the bore if you're buying a used gun. Obviously you need to LOOK down the barrel, which according to the rules is not safe. So you triple check that the firearm is unloaded, and stick a bore light in the chamber, before you look.

3) When a gun is disassembled for cleaning (with firing pin completely separated from chamber), it is obviously not going to magically go off. But I maintain that it is still good practice to keep it pointed in a safe direction.

4) When a gun is carried in a horizontal shoulder holster - technically it is never pointed in a safe direction. Some would therefore argue that horizontal shoulder rigs are unsafe. Others would argue that when the gun is holstered, it is static and not being handled, so the "safe handling rules" do not apply. Then it becomes a question of which is safer - to holster and unholster the gun while wearing the shoulder rig? Or before donning it / after removing the shoulder rig? (I'm not sure of the answer; and I bet it could be argued both ways.)

I could go on. But others will have examples too.
 
I believe the exception to the rule is exactly the example you gave, someone pointing at the camera, assuming no camera operator. Hollywood is full of examples of bad behavior being shown as the norm. Equally, the internet is full of examples of people scouring videos, blogs and forums ready to pounce on just about any comment that doesn't jive with their view of the world. Conflict makes the world go round.
 
Well I see your point, and yes there are times when you can ignore the rules, such as a non-functional firearm made so by you, no internals etc.

But otherwise you should ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS follow the rules to the letter and here is why, the one time you don't, may be your last. If you don't always follow them, you may forget to at a key moment. It's like putting on your seat belt, pretty soon, you don't even realize you've put it on. It should be the same way with firearm safety.
 
One of the firearms mistakes I notice most on T.V. is some one pointing a 1911 at someone else w/ the hammer down. The damn gun won’t shoot like that and the person holding it should know that.

One of the Directors of the T.V. show “Rookie Blue” is a face book friend of mine. I mentioned the above to him once and he offered this input which I think fits in w/ this topic.

On any film set w/ firearms they are kept locked up under the care of the armorer until needed, when a gun is needed for a scene there is a protocol they have to follow. The armorer gets the gun from lock up he verifies that it is unloaded, then he takes it to the actor who will be using the gun in the scene. Once the armorer takes the gun to the actor the actor verifies that the gun is unloaded and if the gun will be pointed at some one in the scene they( the person who the gun will be pointed at) verify that it is unloaded and then the gun is dry fired as a final precaution. Hence all the uncocked 1911s (I also noted that in season 2 every 1911 I saw on RB was cocked)

Anyway after going through all that I’d be less concerned that I was going to shoot someone how much less would some DA actor, who is proably and anti anyway care?
 
I have a friend who is the armorer and resident expert on Army Wives and Homeland. We were talking the other night and he said that as hard as he tries, as many retakes they do to try and make things correct, it all goes to hell once the film editors get hold of the clips and it's whatever they say looks best goes in them in the end.

He says it's very frustrating.

I don't watch Army wives but I do watch Homeland. I asked him about some of the SNAFU's and he knew about everyone I mentioned and he really tried to get them right.

KK
 
Hoganbeg said:
Brandon Lee was killed with a supposedly unloaded movie prop gun.
Click to expand...

The way I heard it the gun was known to be loaded with blanks. But he didn't know the pressure would be enough to still kill when fired close to your head. I am sure somebody here has the full story?
 
Safety rules or any other type of rule should never override common sense. It is easy to develop rules for people to follow but impossible develop common sense in some people. Rules are for people who can't realize that what they are doing is dangerous. I much prefer common sense over rules but we have to settle for rules.
 
jg1967 said:
The way I heard it the gun was known to be loaded with blanks. But he didn't know the pressure would be enough to still kill when fired close to your head. I am sure somebody here has the full story?
Click to expand...

You’re mixing two stories

John Eric Hexum put a .357 Magnum prop gun loaded w/ blanks to his head and pulled the trigger after a long day of filming. He knew the gun was loaded w/ blanks but didn’t realize that the pressure from the blank round would drive a quarter sized piece of his skull into his brain.

Jon-Erik Hexum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brandon Lee’s death was a perfect storm of screw ups

On March 31, 1993, while making The Crow, the crew filmed a scene in which his character walks into his apartment and discovers his fiancée being beaten and raped by thugs. Actor Michael Massee, who played one of the film's villains, was supposed to fire a revolver at Lee as he walked onto the scene.[5]
Since the movie's second unit was running behind schedule, they decided to make dummy cartridges (cartridges that outwardly appear to be functional but contain no propellant or primers) from real cartridges by pulling out the bullets, dumping out the propellant and reinserting the bullets. However, the team neglected to remove the primers, which, if fired, could still produce just enough force to push the bullet out of the cartridge and into the barrel (a squib load) due to its proximity to the bullet. At some point prior to the fatal scene, the live primer in one of the improperly constructed dummy rounds was discharged by an unknown person while in the pistol, leaving the bullet to travel the length of the gun to be stuck in its barrel by the force of being so closely proximate.[6]
This malfunction went unnoticed by the crew, and the same gun was later reloaded with blank cartridges and used in the scene in which Lee was shot. When the first blank cartridge was fired, the force of the primer, though no longer close to the bullet, was able to propel the stuck bullet out of the barrel a new distance greater than the length of the gun and it struck Lee in the abdomen, lodging in his spine.

Brandon Lee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
It is on TV, it is in the movies-- complainers have to get over it. Busy body liberal "do as I say not as I do" people who have nothing better to do than take apart stupid, crappy entertainment produced by stupid people for stupid people LETS PASS A LAW!!! I'm surprised in this crazed lawyer-filled cesspool we live in that someone has not used the "I pointed the firearm at my wife and she is now dead and it is the movie's fault" defense.
 
What about real life scenarios? I hate range Nazis who think they've been appointed safety officer. I've had a few run ins with them. Recently I had some old woman tear me a new one for opening up a plastic handgun case when the range was cold. I didn't handle the gun. I only opened the case to get the mags out. If I wasn't a guest at that club I would have told her to eff off. Sure enough the same woman comes over to me again because I slightly elevated my muzzle to look down the magazine well. The action was open, it was an outdoor range, and I barely even tipped the gun. That second time I just pretended she wasn't even there and completely ignored her.
 
My only point was that even with all the safety routine going from prop man to "shooter" to "shootee" Lee still managed to get shot so something obviously failed in the chain. The safety precautions did not cover all the possibilities and Murphy walked onto the set. Having said that, I will agree that you can't make enough rules to cover every contingency and common sense is Always required. Common sense however is limited by ones education and training. What seems glaringly apparent to you or me may not even be noticed by one without the training to know what is missing.

I guess what it comes down to is you need rules And common sense. Each one supports the other.

By the way, thanks for the rundown on the sequence of events.
 
Treo said:
You’re mixing two stories

John Eric Hexum put a .357 Magnum prop gun loaded w/ blanks to his head and pulled the trigger after a long day of filming. He knew the gun was loaded w/ blanks but didn’t realize that the pressure from the blank
Jon-Erik Hexum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brandon Lee’s death was a perfect storm of screw ups

On March 31, 1993, while making The Crow, the crew filmed a scene in which his character walks into his apartment and discovers his fiancée being beaten and raped by thugs. Actor Michael Massee, who played one of the film's villains, was supposed to fire a revolver at Lee as he walked onto the scene.[5]
Since the movie's second unit was running behind schedule, they decided to make dummy cartridges (cartridges that outwardly appear to be functional but contain no propellant or primers) from real cartridges by pulling out the bullets, dumping out the propellant and reinserting the bullets. However, the team neglected to remove the primers, which, if fired, could still produce just enough force to push the bullet out of the cartridge and into the barrel (a squib load) due to its proximity to the bullet. At some point prior to the fatal scene, the live primer in one of the improperly constructed dummy rounds was discharged by an unknown person while in the pistol, leaving the bullet to travel the length of the gun to be stuck in its barrel by the force of being so closely proximate.[6]
This malfunction went unnoticed by the crew, and the same gun was later reloaded with blank cartridges and used in the scene in which Lee was shot. When the first blank cartridge was fired, the force of the primer, though no longer close to the bullet, was able to propel the stuck bullet out of the barrel a new distance greater than the length of the gun and it struck Lee in the abdomen, lodging in his spine.

Brandon Lee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

round would drive a quarter sized piece of his skull into his brain.

That was quite interesting, thanks for the link!
 
Common sense however is limited by ones education and training.
Click to expand...

You are partly correct about this but training and education cannot create common sense in those who do not have that ability. It can help to compensate but is no replacement. I know some people that are very well educated and intelligent but cannot comprehend some very logical ideas that most take for granted. For instance last week I had a lady call me about a problem with her PC installing some Windows updates. She said that her PC was set to install updates at 3am each night. I asked her if she left her PC on at night. She said that she was supposed to turn it off at night and she did. The summarize she could not understand why her PC would not install the updates if it was not turned on. She is a wonderful lady and will do her best to follow all the rules that you tell her but she cannot relate the reason for a rule to real life.
 
My avatar is my middle son on set of to kill a memory, gun in this photo is not loaded, movies spend a great deal of time and energy on safety, but you can never let your guard down or relax when it comes to safety, blanks can maim/kill, squibs have blinded actors, key is think safety.

You cannot legislate smarts no matter how much you try. Had a reporter in a gun store in Houston, trying to talk about gun safety point a blue gun at me, I walked over took it away from her and handed it to store owner, with comment don't let this idiot point any weapon fake or real at me. I then told her if you are this unsafe with a rubber gun you will kill someone with a real one. Store owner sent the group on it's way.

Safety begins with your brain and a lot of folks fail to engage theirs.
 
Hoganbeg said:
My only point was that even with all the safety routine going from prop man to "shooter" to "shootee" Lee still managed to get shot so something obviously failed in the chain. The safety precautions did not cover all the possibilities and Murphy walked onto the set.
Click to expand...

This protocol was instituted after Brandon Lee's death. It was a direct result of his death that it was instituted
 
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