Armslist - My bad experience

[zebulon]

I found a Ruger PC9 on Armslist.com last month. Thought it would compliment my P95 nicely.

Seller in Georgia, I'm in New York State.

Agreed with the seller to pay $500 using PayPal. He would ship when payment was confirmed. I paid and waited.

Turns out he was selling the rifle for someone else. I had sent the money to her PayPal account. He wouldn't ship until she had cash-in-hand.

PayPal told me she had the money. He told me she didn't. I offered to pay shipping if he shipped FFL-FFL (BassPro). No deal.

He said to tell PayPal that I had received the rifle so they would release the money to her. (I did, reluctantly)

I filed a claim with PayPal. The seller gave a bogus tracking number for the shipment.

After 4 weeks of this, I requested a refund from PayPal and got it this week.

I'll stick to Dealer or FTF sales from now on!!

 

[BluesStringer]

You're lucky you didn't get your PayPal account closed. They don't allow firearms commerce through their system.

Armslist was set up more to facilitate FTF transactions than state-to-state, though state-to-state is fine if the seller has plenty of references or feedback, and the conditions of sale are straight between buyer and seller before money changes hands, not after.

You said that you asked the seller to involve an FFL after the money had changed hands. What process for shipping was the seller offering to begin with?

 

[Steon]

Maybe that's why I haven't made any Armslist transactions yet. I insist they have to be local (within 50 miles drive) so we can deal face to face.

 

[missoak]

I've done a ton of business on Armslist. Both as a seller & a buyer. I have made Firearm deals, but only local & FTF.
Accessories & such is ok by mail or UPS/FEDEX.
Never had a problem. You need to know how to read people, trust your instincts & you should be fine.

 

[zebulon]

Our original deal was to ship to my FFL. I've done this a few times with Gunbroker.com purchases without issue.
Only found out about PayPal not allowing firearm sales when I started looking into filing a claim. After I found out, I referred to the items as "firearm accessories" and the agents were OK with that.
He changed the terms after I paid. I'm not so trusting anymore..

 

[jcreek]

I only tried to use Arms list once and came close to getting burned. It was pretty obvious after emailing him a few times that it was a phishing scam. I've found that local firearms trading Facebook pages are much more helpful than larger websites like Armslist.

 

[beachbum17]

I've done a lot of buying of accessories on armslist and a few trades and buys and it has been decent. I always ask to see a permit and do a bill of sale.
There has been people emailing me that I didn't even bother to meet just need to weed through them.

When they say "I wat that gat" or "I lost my permit" I refuse to meet with them. Lots of normal gun guys on their

 

[BluesStringer]

I've done a lot of buying of accessories on armslist and a few trades and buys and it has been decent. I always ask to see a permit and do a bill of sale.
There has been people emailing me that I didn't even bother to meet just need to weed through them.

When they say "I wat that gat" or "I lost my permit" I refuse to meet with them. Lots of normal gun guys on their

You refuse to sell guns that you advertised for sale to people who don't have a carry permit? Why?

 

[Amsdorf]

I would never buy something off Armslist unless the purchase was face to face.

 

[Steon]

I can't answer for beachbum, but my reason would be that at least at the time they got their permit they passed a background check.

If they wanted to purchase my weapon without a permit, I'd insist they went to a gun store with me and pay the extra $25-35 or so to the gun store to run the pre-sale check. Different gun stores in IN might charge differently, but the two I've checked with charge $25-35 if I recall correctly.

I personally would only want to sell my weapon to someone I was reasonably sure was legally permitted to own a firearm. I know, I know... The counter argument is that just because they have a permit, doesn't mean the permit is still valid. But, at least I checked, took down that name, number, and address, on the bill of sale, and can claim I took reasonable precautions.

 

[beachbum17]

Yes agree to the above post. In MN a permit is required for handguns and sporting tactical. Private sales it is not required, but comes recommended. Shotgun and bolt gun I wouldn't worry so much but for an AR or handgun I want to make sure they have gun through the background check because there are a number of felons that obtain their weapons on armslist and it's illegal to sell to them.

I've dealt with some good people on armslist with guns and a couple shady people with some accessories (mags, ammo) that I wouldn't sell too.

 

[BluesStringer]

Yes agree to the above post. In MN a permit is required for handguns and sporting tactical.

Are we talking a purchase permit or carry permit here? I know some states have purchase permits, but I was under the impression that they are nearly universally seen by gun owners as an extreme infringement of the 2A.

Private sales it is not required, but comes recommended.

Recommended by whom? Who on the pro-2A side of any argument would recommend that gun owners go beyond what is already required by a usurping government and its unconstitutional criminal enterprise enforcement arm know as the BATFE?

Shotgun and bolt gun I wouldn't worry so much but for an AR or handgun I want to make sure they have gun through the background check because there are a number of felons that obtain their weapons on armslist and it's illegal to sell to them.

It is not "illegal" to sell to someone whose background you know nothing about. No background check is required in private sales, and the criminal enterprise known as the BATFE is the source of that information:

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

(18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30)

I've dealt with some good people on armslist with guns and a couple shady people with some accessories (mags, ammo) that I wouldn't sell too.

I get that if someone seems shady one would not want to do any business with them, but I don't get refusing to sell something one wants to sell on the basis of the buyer not having a permit of some kind if that permit is not required. In that instance, it would seem you're equating someone not having a need or the desire to have a permit as the only thing that makes them "shady," and it's just weird to me why anyone would come to such a conclusion if they really wanted to sell what they're advertising.

Blues

 

[beachbum17]

A person who has a permit to purchase or a permit to carry. Either are required for purchase of handgun or sporting/tactical long gun such as an AR in MN. We can not sell either of those items to a person out of state so a permit from Iowa or such could only be done by shipping to their FFL.

I'm for the 2nd amendment, but selling a firearm to someone I don't know is a liability and by having them show a permit tells me they went through a background check. It comes highly recommend by the gun community an out off all me and my friends dealings we have never had one experience where someone would sell to us without seeing a permit.

Private party can be done without, but other than family or friends I require a permit. 90% of the armslist listings in MN say must show permit to purchase or permit to carry. Very few people will sell without you showing it to them.

It is illegal to sell to someone not allowed to own a firearm and there is no way to know that without check a permit. You can't play the I thought the guy was nice in court, you are liable and for knowing who you sell too.

 

[BluesStringer]

I'm for the 2nd amendment, but selling a firearm to someone I don't know is a liability and by having them show a permit tells me they went through a background check....

....It is illegal to sell to someone not allowed to own a firearm and there is no way to know that without check a permit. You can't play the I thought the guy was nice in court, you are liable and for knowing who you sell too.

You are perfectly entitled to do business how and with whomever you please, but the above is simply the spreading of misinformation. I already posted the law from the ATF's website that proves it's untrue.

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

(18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30)

You can't be held liable for following the law, and if they try, people should sue them into oblivion instead of preemptively bending to the local law enforcement's and/or ATF's lawlessness.

Blues

 

[beachbum17]

I see your point. I agree to do business this way for liability reasons. I feel that you still could end up in court for selling the firearm to a felon even if you believe they weren't one, you could still end up trying to defend yourself. Not worth the headache, even if you wouldn't be held liable.
Your welcome to browse my states armslist and see for yourself thy must people require a permit.

I agree though it is not required

 

[jefro30]

Yea I only do FTF for used firearms.

Sent from my LG-MS770 using USA Carry mobile app

 

[BluesStringer]

I see your point. I agree to do business this way for liability reasons. I feel that you still could end up in court for selling the firearm to a felon even if you believe they weren't one, you could still end up trying to defend yourself. Not worth the headache, even if you wouldn't be held liable.
Your welcome to browse my states armslist and see for yourself thy must people require a permit.

I agree though it is not required

I appreciate your acknowledgement, and I am seriously not trying to hammer you for more, but just to clarify the sentence I put in bold above, the law has nothing to do with your "belief" that the individual "isn't" a felon, the standard is if you flat out don't know, or don't have reasonable cause to believe that they are a felon. Assuming you're dealing with a stranger that you got in contact with through Armslist, unless they actually told you, you couldn't possibly have knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that they are a felon. And that is the crux of my not understanding the reason for requiring a permit before you'll sell something that you've advertised for sale and ostensibly wish to sell. I am not a felon, but if someone asked me for anything more than proof that I was of the required age to purchase what they are selling (which, at 59 years old, would take no more than a passing glance), I'd tell 'em to pound sand. For many buyers, that's the whole point of FTF sales, to take the government out of transactions that they should've never been allowed to be involved in in the first place.

I'm not saying that you don't have the right to conduct business any way you like that's within the law, I just don't see the point in the furtherance of gun rights to go beyond what's required by law. I'll just have to live with that lack of understanding though, because no matter what anybody says in response to it, I will never understand volunteering to succumb to self-imposed restrictions on 2nd Amendment exercises that do not exist within the law.

Blues

 

[telpinaro]

It is not "illegal" to sell to someone whose background you know nothing about. No background check is required in private sales, and the criminal enterprise known as the BATFE is the source of that information:


Blues

Unless, of course, you happen to be in Colorado.

Beginning July 1, 2013, HB-1229 becomes Colorado law and will require a background check on all firearms transfers. Referred to as universal background checks; the new law requires private gun transfers to be subject to a background check facilitated by a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL).

Link Removed

Which sucks. I don't know how it works out of state, and I'm not sure if it applies to gifting, but I bet it does. It makes things very awkward. Ugh. F-ing politicians...

Sometime in the next few months, I'll take a "Law of the Gun" class. Maybe then I'll figure it all out. And hopefully then they'll repeal it so I can get my husband an awesome present when he comes home. (Mainly so he doesn't try to take my Chiappa.)

 

[beachbum17]

I agree and you see my rationale behind my way. Yes the out of state I don't think you can do private party on ARs and handguns. Has to legally go through FFL. If hae to look into it.

Glad we could have a clam discussion of the law

 

[zebulon]

Unless, of course, you happen to be in Colorado.



Link Removed

Which sucks. I don't know how it works out of state, and I'm not sure if it applies to gifting, but I bet it does. It makes things very awkward. Ugh. F-ing politicians...

Sometime in the next few months, I'll take a "Law of the Gun" class. Maybe then I'll figure it all out. And hopefully then they'll repeal it so I can get my husband an awesome present when he comes home. (Mainly so he doesn't try to take my Chiappa.)

Same in NY state after the UN-S.A.F.E. act was passed.
Must use an FFL for most private sales (except spouse & children)
As we say in NY, FUAC !