AR Help

[JJFlash]

I have been salting away my pennies and now want to purchase my first AR-15. I need some guidance and who better to help than my compadres on this site. My brother-in-law in Vegas is doing the scouting for me since the selection and price down there beats what's available here in the Outback.

Here's info I have accumulated so far:

1) Caliber - It seems .223 is most common (because ammo is cheaper?). I know this is minimal caliber required to hunt deer (might try using it for that just for s & giggles), but I'm more concerned with stopping people.

2) Barrel length - What I've been told is most folks are buying 16 in. (accurate out to about 300 yds) but if you want accuracy out farther, then consider the 20 in.

3) Sights - fixed or pop-down. I'm told fixed sights are more common and cheaper, but that if you want to add any optics, the front sight can be in the way and most are not removable.

4) The one I'm currently considering is a Bushmaster 223 with 16 inch barrel, pop-down sights, custom after market pistol grip and after market grip for the left hand over the barrel. Listed at $1499.00

What do you guys advise? I do have other rifles for deer-hunting, so that's not a primary issue, but it could be fun, I guess.

Thanks.

 

[KimberPB]

Your number one goal is going to be to figure out what role you want this rifle to play. Hunting, sport shooting, long range, SHTF rifle.

When I built mine I wanted a small light weight SHTF type of rifle that would still be fun to shoot, accurate out to 400 yards, and with some type of red dot sight. So I built a flat top upper with a 16in ultra lightweight barrel with a carbine length gas system in .223. Added flip up BUIS, standard front sight, 6 position stock, and an EOTech. So list the top three things you want this rifle to be able to do and go from there.

Here's info I have accumulated so far:

1) Caliber - It seems .223 is most common (because ammo is cheaper?). I know this is minimal caliber required to hunt deer (might try using it for that just for s & giggles), but I'm more concerned with stopping people.

If hunting is not your main goal for this rifle .223 would be the way I'd go. Then again this is more of a personal preference

2) Barrel length - What I've been told is most folks are buying 16 in. (accurate out to about 300 yds) but if you want accuracy out farther, then consider the 20 in.

You are correct a longer heavier barrel will normally give you more accuracy. So this is were you have to decided do I want a longer range sniper style rifle or more of a lightweight, carry around, fighting rifle. A 16in M4 profile barrel would be a great 400 yard SHTF barrel were as a 20in bull barrel would give you great accuracy but be a lot heavier to carry around.

3) Sights - fixed or pop-down. I'm told fixed sights are more common and cheaper, but that if you want to add any optics, the front sight can be in the way and most are not removable.

If you are planning on putting a scope on the rifle I'd recommend getting a low profile or flip down front sight base. If your leaning more towards Irons or some kind of red dot I'd take a standard front base and spend the money on a nice flip up rear sight.

4) The one I'm currently considering is a Bushmaster 223 with 16 inch barrel, pop-down sights, custom after market pistol grip and after market grip for the left hand over the barrel. Listed at $1499.00

Bushmaster makes good rifles and if this one meets the criteria your looking for then you'll love it.

What do you guys advise? I do have other rifles for deer-hunting, so that's not a primary issue, but it could be fun, I guess.

If I was going to want to dear hunt with this rifle, and that was going to be it's main function, I think I'd go more toward a nice heavy 20in in .308 or maybe 6.8, low profile gas block, flat top upper, with a scope.

Thanks.

Hope this helps and feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.

 

[rugerfan.64]

Ummm,,,,keep saving those pennies and get an M1A. Havent got a clue about an AR,just hope you enjoy it when you get it.

 

[theicemanmpls]

Don't shoot a deer with a .223. It is not a deer caliber. I know there are some out there who will say it works just fine. You hunting in ND? Mule deer? White tail? Use a deer hunting caliber. You owe the deer a quick humane kill.

The AR platform comes in .223, 308, and 6mm and more platforms.

The .308 will do it all. However, it could weigh a few more pounds then you are willing to carry deer hunting.

Want a SHTF rifle? Get the rifle with the carry handle. Peep sights just like the M-16. These are battle sights.

16" barrel is just fine. 20" is for long range work.

Want to target or varmit shoot? Get a flat top and put good optics on it.

I put a halo sight on my DPMS. It works great on tin cans, and rodents.

 

[Bighouse Doc]

Para makes a nice .223 carbine (LR300) based.

A really great piece of hardware.

-Doc

 

[JJFlash]

Appreciate all the education.

I just got word from bro-in-law not to buy anything yet, he's got a dealer friend in Vegas and might be able to swing a deal for me.

Yeah, I haven't shot deer with anything but a .30 or .270 cal but the regs here list .223 as minimal caliber. I have a couple friends who use it but I don't deer hunt with 'em (white tails, btw) so I don't know how effective they are. Seems light.

Now, I hadn't considered varmint hunting. My son and I have discussed getting into whacking some coyotes (they have exploded in recent years), so .223 would work for that. I'm pumped.

It's basically gonna be a SHTF weapon. I'll keep ya'll posted. After I get it, we can talk accessories!

 

[rugerfan.64]

Man,,,,dont go down that coyote hunting road,,,, You'll be hooked ..buying calls and callers ,,,,camo suits ,,,,painting your rifle,,,getting some serious bipods ,,,, and dont what ever you do look at varmintals.com. I'm telling ya that coyote hunting stuff is worse than shootin ducks. Dont do it ,,,dont do it.

 

[JJFlash]

Man,,,,dont go down that coyote hunting road,,,, You'll be hooked ..buying calls and callers ,,,,camo suits ,,,,painting your rifle,,,getting some serious bipods ,,,, and dont what ever you do look at varmintals.com. I'm telling ya that coyote hunting stuff is worse than shootin ducks. Dont do it ,,,dont do it.

Uh, oh...we're crazed duck hunters so this ain't gonna be good!

 

[SpaceFrank]

One thing I've been wondering about (and I may have already asked this in another thread): how do you guys feel about piston-operated ARs? I've heard they run cleaner than direct gas-operated models, and supposedly the bolt area of the upper receiver stays cooler as well. Any firsthand experience? Are there downsides to that type of system?

 

[Ropadope]

Here's my latest. The LWRC M6A2 chambered in 6.8 SPC. It's one of the highest quality AR rifles available but they come with a heavy price tag.

I also like the idea of building your lower and then purchasing a complete piston upper from LMT or LWRC. Use good quality furniture, stock, grips, etc.

Don't overlook BCM (Bravo Company Manufacturing) complete uppers. Here is what I am going to purchase once they are back in stock to pin to an RRA lower that I built with a two stage Knights trigger and KNS Precision non-rotating trigger and hammer pins.

Link Removed

KNS Precision: Link Removed

The last photo is the LMT Monolithic Rail Platform piston upper. Mine is the SBR (shor barreled rifle) in 10.5" sitting on top of the LMT Defender lower with the SOPMOD stock.

I personally wouldn't waste my money on a Bushmaster, that's just me.

Stocks: There's only two or three stocks that I would even consider. Vltor EMOD, MOD and their upcoming IMOD stock. Also the LMT SOPMOD stock is a no brainer. Here are some pictures from MP.net of the three stocks, including the new Vltor IMOD stock. It is set to be shipped to dealers in about 4-6 weeks.

HERE STOCKS: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?173794-Picture-review-of-the-Vltor-iMOD-stock

Here is what features you want in your AR upper platform, anything less is not desirable in my opinion. This is printed from BCM.



Made by Bravo Company MFG, Inc. (BCM™) These Barreled Upper Receiver Groups are designed for shooting professionals with the Mil-Spec features for the demands of their duty. They are fully assembled, headspaced, and test fired. These do not include bolt carrier groups, charging handles or handguards.





As a note: BCM™ barrel components are parkerized separately before assembly. Prior to shipping, all BCM™ upper receiver groups are test fired for function, laser bore sighted with a Milspec carry handle for sight alignment within Mil-Specs, and then batch samples are test fired for accuracy. As such, the upper receiver group will show handling marks consistant with these quality control procedures.





Cold Hammer Forged Barrels

This process of manufacturing barrels has been used for European small arms for generations, and it is gaining popularity in the United States because of the increased barrel life and outstanding accuracy of a hammer forged barrel. The BCM BFH™ series of barrels are made right here in the USA! (Just like all the BCM products.)





M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension

M4 Feed Ramp Flat Top Receiver

In developing the USGI M4 carbine as one of the primary weapons for today’s infantry, some modifications were performed to the original M16 platform to enhance the reliability of the shorter barreled carbines. With the shorter carbine gas system and the increased gas port pressure, the carbine cycled faster, and at times the cycle rate could be faster than the magazine would feed ammunition. One of the modifications done to increase reliable feeding included enhancing the angle and the length of the feed ramps. This USGI modification was done to both the barrel extension and the upper receiver, creating a longer and steeper feed ramp. These Mil-Spec M4 feed ramps are part of the original CNC manufacturing process. As a result, the factory machined M4 feed ramps on the receiver are hard coat anodized which adds significant strength to the aluminum. This feature is offered on all BCM uppers and all BCM barrels.





T-Marked Upper Receiver

The contemporary M16/M4 rifle is built around the concept of modularity. All of the BCM flat top uppers feature a USGI type laser etched T-marks to provide addressing for the remounting of tactical accessories such as optics, laser sights, etc. This enables the weapon platform to be easily configured and then accurately reconfigured for each specific mission.





USGI 1/7 Twist Rate

The USGI 1/7 twist rate of all of the BCM barrels is the preferred twist rate by most professional infantryman. This twist rate has proven very versatile and can effectively run the new heavier 5.56 ammo that is hugely popular with military and private security personal for its’ superior ballistics.





Mil-Spec Barrel Steel (Certified Mil-B-11595E)

BCM barrel steel is Mil-Spec per MIL-B-11595E, and is independently certified. This grade (CMV) of steel is a Mil-Spec steel used in the USGI M16 family of rifles; it is stronger and will last longer than the typical barrels offered in the commercial market. This Mil-Spec grade steel gets its’ additional strength and rigidity from an increase in carbon and/or vanadium in the alloy. This will offer increased barrel life and performance through use in all types of extreme environments and temperatures.





Chrome Bore and Chamber

One of the first modifications that were made to the original M16 in the mid 1960’s was the addition of the chrome lined bore and chamber. It is now a world wide standard in the industry for a battle rifle. The chrome bore and chamber is harder than the barrel steel and on the USGI M16/M4 rifles will aid in chambering, extraction, and reliability. It increases velocity, and also resist against fouling and corrosion from extended use in the field. This gives the end user a longer barrel life with less required time in maintenance and cleaning.





Manganese Phosphate Barrel Finish

Barrels are parkerized with the manganese phosphate finish (Mil-Spec A-A-59267). Military specifications also state that the entire barrel surface is phosphate finished to create a porous surface to absorb oil as to resist against corrosion from the elements. BCM barrels are phosphated before installation of front sights. This is a much more extensive assembly operation, but insures that the entire barrel is finished and protected . . .even under the front sight base.





5.56 NATO Chambers

The USGI 5.56 NATO chamber is the best choice for effective deployment, reliability, and compatibility, of higher chamber pressures of military ammo.





Mil-Spec F-Marked Forged Front Sight Bases

Mil-Spec for rifles issued to the troops require taller front sight bases on all flat top AR rifles. Many commercial offerings use M16A2 height front sight bases on all of their barrels regardless of what type of upper it is installed on. As a result, owners of rifles and carbines with the flat top receiver configuration can have problems getting a proper 'zero' for elevation with Mil-Spec back up iron sights. As all of the BCM uppers are built for flat top uppers, all have the proper Mil-Spec F marked front sight base to insure the correct height for iron sight zeroing when using military iron sights. Mil-Spec taper pins secure the forged front sight base with the sling swivel secured by tubular rivets.





Government Barrel Profiles

Duty rifles are built to be carried - day in and day out. The USGI barrel profiles (often referred to as the Government Profile) enable the operator to carry their weapon for longer periods of time and deploy them faster than the heavier commercial H-Barrel counterparts. The government profile barrel is also compatible with the current M203 mounting systems.





HPT / MP Inspected Barrels

Military specifications require that barrels undergo a HPT (High-Pressure Test) load as a part of quality assurance procedures. Commonly referred to as a proof load, the M197 HPT is rated for 70,000 psi. BCM barrels are proof loaded and then MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected) to detect any possible flaws in the barrels surface. The barrels are MP inspected with both circular and longitudinal magnetic fields per ASTME1444-01 (current Mil-Spec) to assure a high quality finished product. All BCM barrels are marked HP MP as our proof load marking.





Copyright © 2009 Bravo Company MFG, Inc.



Features

Cold Hammer Forged Barrels


M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension


M4 Feed Ramp Flat Top Receiver


T-Marked Upper Receivers


USGI 1/7 Twist Rates


USGI 5.56 NATO Chambers


Mil-Spec 11595E - Certified Barrel Steel (CMV)


Chrome Lined Bore and Chamber


Manganese Phosphate Barrel Finish


Mil-Spec F-Marked Forged Front Sights


USGI Government Profile Barrels


HPT (High Pressure Test) Barrels


MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected) Barrels

 

[Mainsail]

As mentioned, consider first what your intended use is, then build around that. The .223 is a compromise; it gives you magazine capacity and flat trajectory, it costs some terminal energy. The benefit of the .223 and the AR platform is that it creates a very lightweight package with plenty of stopping power for man-sized targets on down to varmints. Yes, a .308 is going to be a better man-stopper than the .223, but it kicks more and the gun weighs more. If you’re going to go the route of an AR in .223, keep ‘lightweight’ in mind, and build to that ideal. If you’re going to commando your AR with lights and all sorts of other add-ons, you’ll cross a line where the gun is as heavy as a .308 with all the drawbacks of the .223. Are you going to get an aluminum 4-railed fore-grip? Well, aluminum weighs a little more than the plastic, and encourages you to add things to the rails. Just try to keep the ideal picture that you formed when you buy or build.

Personally, I don’t like the 16” barrel with the carbine length gas system. The carbine length system is really for 14” barrels, which we cannot really own (yes, there are exceptions and ways around that rule). I prefer the mid-length gas system for reliability, more hand space, and looks. It also allows you to add a bayonet for when you want to take a picture of the gun.

I also prefer a 1:7 twist barrel, it allows you to shoot heavier bullets.

Whatever you decide to do, research first, then buy or build. Decide a purpose and remember that purpose when you accessorize. Don’t fall into the trap of attaching a load of gear to the rails just because you want it to look cool.