AR-15 build issue..


Andrew17

New member
Building my own AR, on a budget and taking my sweet time. Well, I went to my local shop yesterday to buy a stripped lower receiver as the next piece of my awesome puzzle, and, to my surprise, you must be 21 to buy a stripped lower. WHAT?!?! I said to the clerk... Well, you can make a pistol out of a lower receiver, so you must be 21 to buy one. BUT, you need only be 18 to buy a completed lower with a stock installed.... Even though you could take 5 minutes and remove the stock and make a pistol anyways... The government can be really retarded. Just reminds you that most of the gun laws are made by people who have no clue.
 

I agree. Here in Maine you must be 21 to buy a handgun from a FFL but you can get your carry permit at 18. Of course in Maine you can buy a handgun form another person at any age.
 
I would check with a different store, sounds like they are full of it.
It is the receiver that requires an FFL and the AR receiver is an rifle receiver.
 
That might be the ATF's stand on it, but some states don't follow ATF recommendations when it comes to rifle vs. pistol. Example: ATF says the Rossi Ranch Hand is a pistol, therefore as long as you can buy a pistol you can have one. New York State says the Ranch Hand is a short barreled rifle, therefore illegal without a special permit in the state.
 
BUT, you need only be 18 to buy a completed lower with a stock installed.... Even though you could take 5 minutes and remove the stock and make a pistol anyways...
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This is a federal crime, once you build a reciever into a rifle you cannot change it to a pistol. To do so would be making a SBR and they will nail you to the wall if they can prove it. The manufacturer or LGS might have records that it was a rifle that they could use against you. It's dumb but you need to be aware of what the law says.
I would check with a different store, sounds like they are full of it.
It is the receiver that requires an FFL and the AR receiver is an rifle receiver.
Also not correct. An AR receiver can be built into a pistol or rifle or technically an "other", but just by existing it is not a rifle receiver. It will matter what the FFL puts on your 4473. The newer forms have an option for you to choose pistol, revolver, rifle,shotgun, receiver, or frame.
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I think your LGS is afraid of the receiver being built into a pistol and the ATF getting pissed that you are under 21. It's wrong but what gunstore isn't extrememly weary of the ATF?
 
Here are the rules.
26 U.S.C. 5845(c): DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)
27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)
27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (PISTOL)
 
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This is a federal crime, once you build a reciever into a rifle you cannot change it to a pistol. To do so would be making a SBR and they will nail you to the wall if they can prove it. The manufacturer or LGS might have records that it was a rifle that they could use against you. It's dumb but you need to be aware of what the law says.

Really? Please explain the Beretta Neos or any other such firearm that can be BOTH a rifle and pistol. Thompson center has fought this in court and won.

Also just to ask I have a firearm that was bought with a 20 inch barrel and a stock ( it is not black powder ) it is NOT a SBR but I can put a 10 inch barrel or any length with the stock on it both ignoring the overall length and the 16 in barrel length but it is legal in any of these configurations. How can I do this?
 
...you must be 21 to buy a stripped lower...

It's generally the same way online, at least in my experiences with it; I don't know of any place where you don't need to be 21. I recall having to send a copy of my driver's license along with the FFL when I purchased mine directly through Del-Ton. They also require you to be 21 to purchase a completed lower, but I don't know of any such limitations on their rifle kits, which is a bit odd.

If you can't find a store willing to do it, you could either try to find someone in-state with one for sale, or it can be given to you as a gift. Obviously, someone purchasing it for you is considered a straw purchase and against Federal law.
 
Really? Please explain the Beretta Neos or any other such firearm that can be BOTH a rifle and pistol. Thompson center has fought this in court and won.

Also just to ask I have a firearm that was bought with a 20 inch barrel and a stock ( it is not black powder ) it is NOT a SBR but I can put a 10 inch barrel or any length with the stock on it both ignoring the overall length and the 16 in barrel length but it is legal in any of these configurations. How can I do this?
You would need to tell me what model of firearm it is... not enough info to answer the second question, or even look into it.

Here is your explanation....... Not mocking you but you are asking for clear answers from the ATF.
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Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a “pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand.
Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:
(a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or
(b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including –
(1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and(2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length.
Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA. (IE short barrel rifle {my edit**)
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(here is the part that explains why the Beretta Neo (a pistol) can be converted to a rifle and back... which I was not aware of so thanks for pointing that out.)
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Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).
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http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
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If you go back and read what i said it was correct, or as correct as can be gleamed from the ATF ruling. This isn't my interpretation, it's what I learned when I built my AR pistol. I did a lit of research to make sure I would't end up in the big house.
 
You gave the answer. You CAN change them. A rifle can be a pistol.

As for the second one the firearm in question is a Colt 1r-15. Bought with a stock and a 20 inch barrel. NOT a SBR. However you can put any length barrel on it you desire and it is still legal. Even with a 7 inch barrel with a stock. ignoring both the overall length and the barrel length. How can this be possible?
 
You gave the answer. You CAN change them. A rifle can be a pistol.

As for the second one the firearm in question is a Colt 1r-15. Bought with a stock and a 20 inch barrel. NOT a SBR. However you can put any length barrel on it you desire and it is still legal. Even with a 7 inch barrel with a stock. ignoring both the overall length and the barrel length. How can this be possible?

Yes it can if you get a tax stamp first... if you do not it is a federal crime, a violation of the 1934 firearms act.
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From the document witht he crap thinned out.
"if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon made from a rifle” "
"Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA."
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It's dumb, a firearm produced as a pistol can be converted to a rifle configuration and back, but one built as a rifle cannot do the same.
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If you don't believe me google it.
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What is a Colt 1r-15..... did you mean AR-15?
 
Yes it can if you get a tax stamp first... if you do not it is a federal crime, a violation of the 1934 firearms act.
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From the document witht he crap thinned out.
"if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon made from a rifle” "
"Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA."
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It's dumb, a firearm produced as a pistol can be converted to a rifle configuration and back, but one built as a rifle cannot do the same.
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If you don't believe me google it.

Well as I already stated this is not true as Thompson center already proved this in court. That is why you can buy a Thompson center RIFLE and replace the stock with a pistol grip then put a short barrel on it making it a handgun.


What is a Colt 1r-15..... did you mean AR-15?

That is correct. Answer please? A ar15 rifle bought with a 20 inch barrel but you can put any length barrel on it you desire from 1 inch to 20 all are LEGAL but it is NOT a SBR. With stock OR without!
 
Well as I already stated this is not true as Thompson center already proved this in court. That is why you can buy a Thompson center RIFLE and replace the stock with a pistol grip then put a short barrel on it making it a handgun.




That is correct. Answer please? A ar15 rifle bought with a 20 inch barrel but you can put any length barrel on it you desire from 1 inch to 20 all are LEGAL but it is NOT a SBR. With stock OR without!

Here you go... here is a link to the decision of the Thompson Centerfire Supreme Court decision.
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Link Removed (click on the opinion PDF at the bottom)
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Multiple times the court refers to the Contender in question as a PISTOL, with a conversion kit that makes it a LEGAL RIFLE than can be converted back to a pistol. It references Judge Scalia saying that maybe they could put an engraving on the stock that said if the stock is attached with a battel of less than 16 inches it would be illegal.
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No where does that decision you keep referencing support your claims that a rifle can be converted to a pistol. It specifically references a pistol to a rifle which is what I have been saying the entire time. Please find somehere in the case you reference that supports making a rifle into a pistol.
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Please find ANY FFL that will sell you an AR15 with a stock and a barrel of less than 16 inches without NFA paperwork. Please find ANY seller of AR uppers that says it is legal to put a barrel of less that 16 inces on a receiver with a stock. You have called me out yet have offered no proof to support your claims of being able to take an AR RIFLE with a barrel of 20 inches and replace it with a lower as short as 1 inch.
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Lets see your proof.
 
No it is a machine gun subject to the NFA. Kinda sucks that is someone doesn't read to the end of the thread they will think you are saying that they can put a short barrel on anything. Short of a form 4 they will go to prision.

What I said about rifles cannot be converted to a pistol holds true. Your MACHINE GUN exempts you from the consequences but anyone that buys a rifle and does so is asking for trouble if they get caught.
 

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