Anyone watch "Sons of Guns" Wednesday night?

[SC Tiger]

I'm kind of confused. The project they took was to develop a way to mount 2 M-16s onto a boat, and have them capable of sustained fully automatic fire. The project was for the "Brown Water Navy" (I'll get into the reason for the quotes in a second).

What they wound up doing was converting the M-16s to water cooled by wrapping copper tubing around the barrel and gas tube underneath the handguard and hooking it to a small pump that pumped water through continuously.

The system worked but my question was simply - why? I would think the Navy would have access to 5.56mm Squad Automatic Weapons that are designed for this type of setup. Add to this the fact that M-16 is a magazine fed weapon and, even with a 100 round drum, you have less than 10 seconds of ammo at full blast. With a SAW, being belt fed you can just hook on another belt and go as long as you want, though you may need a water-cooled system to avoid barrel changes.

They did the same thing with an M-16 connected to a remote system for a "security contractor" that was, once again, magazine fed.

The second part that confused me was that these guys did not look at all like they were in the Navy. Something about them looked wrong. I was starting to wonder if they were some sort of militia or something. Is the "Brown Water Navy" something different than the regular Navy? I know there was a Brown Water Navy in Vietnam and I would assume they are still around but has some other group taken this name?

Something was just wierd.

 

[lukem]

No, I'm pretty sure they were from the same unit my father was in actually. I called him to see if he had watched it but he didn't see it yet. There is a Navy Special Boat Team there so I'd be 99% that's who it was.

 

[SC Tiger]

That could be who they were. It just seemed wierd since a) the COs fatigues didn't look right somehow (and the guy who came into the shop wasn't wearing any and b) I'm surprised a unit would be allowed to purchase a weapon system like this on their own.

The fatigues (or lack thereof) could be explained as the guy trying to keep a low profile.

I still don't get why you would use two M-16s instead of belt-fed machine guns but there could be a reason I'm not seeing. I thought maybe they didn't have room for ammo boxes but this system had two .50 caliber boxes with it - one held the pump and served as a water tank and the other housed the battery. Of course on a production unit this could be located remotely I suppose (and the battery could be ditched and the system could run on the boat's electrical system).

 

[lukem]

That could be who they were. It just seemed wierd since a) the COs fatigues didn't look right somehow (and the guy who came into the shop wasn't wearing any and b) I'm surprised a unit would be allowed to purchase a weapon system like this on their own.

The fatigues (or lack thereof) could be explained as the guy trying to keep a low profile.

I still don't get why you would use two M-16s instead of belt-fed machine guns but there could be a reason I'm not seeing. I thought maybe they didn't have room for ammo boxes but this system had two .50 caliber boxes with it - one held the pump and served as a water tank and the other housed the battery. Of course on a production unit this could be located remotely I suppose (and the battery could be ditched and the system could run on the boat's electrical system).

Yea, I was kind of thinking the same thing. I know when I saw my dad's unit do demos on family day they had m60's? I think mounted on each side of their PBR's. I was really young but I'm sure that's what they were. I know that's a different round but as you said they could just use a SAW?

 

[vettefreak]

you would be surprised how much freedom JSOC has in sourcing weapon/weapon systems for use in their operations....

 

[SPEAR-99]

Do you what jsoc is? All the code words fail me.

 

[PaxMentis]

you would be surprised how much freedom JSOC has in sourcing weapon/weapon systems for use in their operations....

This is true.

Also, I missed the show, but just watched the vids on the website and the LT said at the end that he "could only recommend, but will do [his] best to support you"...

 

[SC Tiger]

This is true.

Also, I missed the show, but just watched the vids on the website and the LT said at the end that he "could only recommend, but will do [his] best to support you"...

I missed that part.

It could also be that this was done as either a 1) "Let's see what you can do" test, or 2) They had another weapon system in mind for this but it wasn't available.

 

[Hatchet]

could be for the simple reason as to use the same ammo... why take some of this ammo and some of that, when you can just take a bunch of one ammo... again i'm just taking a guess...

 

[obxfshr]

@ Spear

Do you what jsoc is? All the code words fail me.

Joint Special Operations Command

 

[Retired Grunt]

I just don't think that it is an actual US military unit. The Lt's uniform is all wrong he pants are bloused worse than a recruits etc. As for The weapon choice at first I thought the intent would be to mount their carry weapon then unmount it when they landed. after seeing the intended use it just doesn't make sense you could just as easily mount 2 M249 Saws that are meant to sustain a high cyclic reate of fire and are belt fed with the additional ability to change barrels and dismount they weapon and carry it away should the need arise without lugging 2 ammo cans and hoses. USASOC has the funding and the technologhy to get any weapon they perceive a need for and if they needed to outsource a new weapon platform you can guarantee someone way above a LT would be on hand to test it. Just my .02 cents

 

[wallyb]

It is a reality show, take it for what it is worth.

 

[paramedic70002]

More like 'constructed' reality in my opinion. Some of their customer situations seem contrived to me. I like the owner's persona, but having seen what appears to be their 'fly by night' methods, I'm not sure I'd want to buy anything custom or smithed from them.

 

[S&W645]

Brown Water Navy could also be a cover. Like "Embassy Supply". Where if you enter the building you better have ID visible or the roving guard might ruin your life. My take was that it may be part of the same 3 letter outfit.

 

[ArmyRanger]

The Saw uses the same ammo that an M-16 uses, it's just belted. JSOC can go outside the normal procurement channels to get weapons for special uses, however, I really don't think that those guys were Navy or any other military organization, the uniforms didn't fit and and I don't know any SpecOps guys who would be filmed. A lot of these type of shows are somewhat "scripted", so it wouldn't suprise me if some of the stuff on this show is. Like Momma used to say, don't believe everything you see on tv.

 

[SC Tiger]

The Saw uses the same ammo that an M-16 uses, it's just belted. JSOC can go outside the normal procurement channels to get weapons for special uses, however, I really don't think that those guys were Navy or any other military organization, the uniforms didn't fit and and I don't know any SpecOps guys who would be filmed. A lot of these type of shows are somewhat "scripted", so it wouldn't suprise me if some of the stuff on this show is. Like Momma used to say, don't believe everything you see on tv.

The uniforms didn't look right to me but then how would I know since I wasn't in the military. I know the SAW can use an M-16/M-4 box mag, but could the SAW use the Beta Mags they had on this rig or is the receiver too wide? Maybe they don't like belts flopping around.

Even if this were a real thing for the military I could see them using stand-ins for the military guys. They had a "defense contractor" on a few episodes back that also didn't look right either - looked too much like an actor playing a defense contractor.

 

[Mobuck]

Brown Water Navy refers to the naval units operating modified Boston Whalers in the costal, delta, and fresh water areas of SVN. Normally mounted twin M2 50cal in a tub or pedastal on the front deck and M60's on the waist position(many variations). They got into some pretty hairy stuff while patroling the narrow, winding waterways.
The twin AR setup would be absolutely worthless for any real need due to the small caliber and lack of belt fed capabilty.
Personally, I think "redjacket" is a load of BS from the get go.

 

[john319]

You have to pay special attention to the show sometimes. The Navy guy said that his CO had given him permission to use the river range. He did not identify the LT as his commander. The LT was identified as a Special Forces Armorer, while that may have been true in his past he is now a civilian armorer who works for the Navy. He was likely a LT in the past so out of respect they call him LT.

The "Brown Water Navy" typically refers to units that operate on inland rivers and can refer to both JSOC personnel and regular Navy. Not the best use of the term on the show but then who cares the show is about Red Jacket not the Navy.

Now, I agree, the concept of a sustained fire M16 is kind of silly. Why not use the M249 or any number of belt fed weapons systems that already have a mount system. It makes you wonder what the Navy guys were thinking.

 

[CathyInBlue]

The remotely operated turret was designed for the .50BMG, and specificly, it was designed so the operator could still pop up out of the manhole on top of the Hummer, flip a couple of levers on the turret, and the rifle comes right back off ready to be employed "shoulder mounted".

I missed the episode at hand, but that couldn't possibly be the point in using otherwise ordinary M-16 lowers if the barrels are tethered to the deck with a water cooling system.

 

[Ranger D]

While I do like the show, that particular show was as phony as a 3-dollar bill. Spent 21 years doing the samething (Army) and there's no way I would go into combat with a weapons system that dates back to World War Two!!