Anyone know of someone caught carrying outside their "sportsman" restriction?


jeffx

New member
Anyone know of someone caught carrying outside their "sportsman" restriction?

Has anyone ever heard of someone caught carrying outside of their "sportsman" or similar ridiculous and unconstitutional restriction? What were the repercussions if any?

I have read in many places that there is no criminal penalty for carrying outside of these restrictions made up by our judges, but that they the judges can revoke your permit for being caught for doing such.
 

hunter won

New member
Carrying out of restrictions

Has anyone ever heard of someone caught carrying outside of their "sportsman" or similar ridiculous and unconstitutional restriction? What were the repercussions if any?

I have read in many places that there is no criminal penalty for carrying outside of these silly restrictions made up by our idiotic judges, but that they the judges can revoke your permit for being caught for doing such.
Your permit is revoked no criminal charge.The judge when he interviewed you makes it perfectly clear that it is restricted for target/hunting only.Most every county in New York places restrictions on your permit.
 

jeffx

New member
Here is the case law that determined that it is not a crime to carry outside of your restrictions, they are only considered "administrative" restrictions and the judge can suspend or revoke your license, IF he finds out about it:

PEOPLE STATE NEW YORK v. LINCOLN PARKER (09/02/77)
PEOPLE STATE NEW YORK v. LINCOLN PARKER (10/30/79)
PEOPLE STATE NEW YORK v. LINCOLN PARKER (02/10/81)

Also, see the NY State Police website:

Link Removed

Q - What section of the Penal Law authorizes the placing of restrictions on pistol permits by the issuing authority?

The Penal Law does not specifically authorize the placing of restrictions on pistol permits. However, court decisions have consistently supported the ability of licensing officials to impose these restrictions. Such an imposition is an administrative function of the licensing officer.

Licensees in violation of these restrictions would therefore not be subject to criminal prosecution but would face action being taken by the court of issuance in the form of suspension or possible revocation of the license.
 

pwr2al4

New member
Here is the case law that determined that it is not a crime to carry outside of your restrictions, they are only considered "administrative" restrictions and the judge can suspend or revoke your license, IF he finds out about it:

PEOPLE STATE NEW YORK v. LINCOLN PARKER (09/02/77)
PEOPLE STATE NEW YORK v. LINCOLN PARKER (10/30/79)
PEOPLE STATE NEW YORK v. LINCOLN PARKER (02/10/81)

Also, see the NY State Police website:

Link Removed

Q - What section of the Penal Law authorizes the placing of restrictions on pistol permits by the issuing authority?

The Penal Law does not specifically authorize the placing of restrictions on pistol permits. However, court decisions have consistently supported the ability of licensing officials to impose these restrictions. Such an imposition is an administrative function of the licensing officer.

Licensees in violation of these restrictions would therefore not be subject to criminal prosecution but would face action being taken by the court of issuance in the form of suspension or possible revocation of the license.

This is the way I understand it to be as well.Although I have no real expierience with a restricted NYS permit Since it has been made clear that you are in no danger of facing any type of prosecution whatsoever since the courts themselves acknowledge that their restrictions are in fact unconstitutional, and therefore meaningless in a court of law, I never understood why those who may have a target restriction, or hunting restrisction dont always keep a small range bag locked in the trunk with the name and business hours of a of a couple conveiently located ranges, both nearby and perhaps upstate somewhere, along with a letter from a buddy talking about getting toghether to go shooting soon.

why not just call a spade a spade, if they NYS leg. is gona openly admit that their restrictions are invalid, why not just dummy up and 'always be on the way either to a local range or the start of a vacation upstate to do some shooting.'
After all whats the worst that could happen.
 

mmurtha

www.murthalawfirm.com
This is the way I understand it to be as well.Although I have no real expierience with a restricted NYS permit Since it has been made clear that you are in no danger of facing any type of prosecution whatsoever since the courts themselves acknowledge that their restrictions are in fact unconstitutional, and therefore meaningless in a court of law, I never understood why those who may have a target restriction, or hunting restrisction dont always keep a small range bag locked in the trunk with the name and business hours of a of a couple conveiently located ranges, both nearby and perhaps upstate somewhere, along with a letter from a buddy talking about getting toghether to go shooting soon.

why not just call a spade a spade, if they NYS leg. is gona openly admit that their restrictions are invalid, why not just dummy up and 'always be on the way either to a local range or the start of a vacation upstate to do some shooting.'
After all whats the worst that could happen.

Some counties (at least here in Suffolk) prohibit you from making any stops whatsoever when travelling from your house to the range if you have a sportsman endorsement. The reason they prohibited stops is because people were doing exactly what you desribed. I would imagine if you live in a county that doesn't prohibit stops and enough people give the "oh I was just on my way to the range" at 2am, when you clearly weren't, that your county will soon prohibit stops as well.

In addition, although carrying outside the scope of your endorsement is not a crime per se, whether or not you will be charged with a crime is a different story. Depending on the circumstances, you could be arrested and charged with a crime akin to menacing in the 2nd degree. It all depends on how visible your firearm is, and what the circumstances were that alerted the athorities to the fact that you were carrying.
 

hunter won

New member
Carrying out of restrictions

Some counties (at least here in Suffolk) prohibit you from making any stops whatsoever when travelling from your house to the range if you have a sportsman endorsement. The reason they prohibited stops is because people were doing exactly what you desribed. I would imagine if you live in a county that doesn't prohibit stops and enough people give the "oh I was just on my way to the range" at 2am, when you clearly weren't, that your county will soon prohibit stops as well.

In addition, although carrying outside the scope of your endorsement is not a crime per se, whether or not you will be charged with a crime is a different story. Depending on the circumstances, you could be arrested and charged with a crime akin to menacing in the 2nd degree. It all depends on how visible your firearm is, and what the circumstances were that alerted the athorities to the fact that you were carrying.
Since there has been cases in Suffolk and other counties throughout the state of subjects carrying a licensed handgun with a Sportman permit/restricted permit.You may be arrested under section 265 of the NYPL if caught with a handgun that isn't properly licensed.Depending on the circumstances how and where you were caught.If caught you can expect that for a minimum of 1 year suspension/revocation.Suffolk county is very strict even with a business endorsement it's only good while your conducting business no carrying after business hours they require a locked box safe and check the business to make sure that you have the safe prior to issuing your permit.Just a very difficult time getting a permit to carry.
 

jeffx

New member
Since there has been cases in Suffolk and other counties throughout the state of subjects carrying a licensed handgun with a Sportman permit/restricted permit.You may be arrested under section 265 of the NYPL if caught with a handgun that isn't properly licensed.

This statement is incorrect, please see the decision handed down in PEOPLE STATE NEW YORK v. LINCOLN PARKER (02/10/81).

Based on this section of the law:
Section 265.20 Exemptions
a. Sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05, 265.10, 265.11, 265.12, 265.13, 265.15 and 270.05 shall not apply to:
3. Possession of a pistol or revolver by a person to whom a license therefor has been issued as provided under section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter ; provided, that such a license shall not preclude a conviction for the offense defined in subdivision three of section 265.01 of this article.
 

Kevins9145

Airsoft Guru
Possession of a pistol or revolver by a person to whom a license therefor has been issued as provided under section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter ; provided, that such a license shall not preclude a conviction for the offense defined in subdivision three of section 265.01 of this article.

Is that English lol? ? ? :blink:
 

alexmx22

New member
Your permit is revoked no criminal charge.The judge when he interviewed you makes it perfectly clear that it is restricted for target/hunting only.Most every county in New York places restrictions on your permit.

Dutchess county doen't.
 

hunter won

New member
For everyone that has used a service in the past which has a 24 hour range.It was a popular sales pitch the guy would show his permit, he would point out see it says type next to it is carry.They put a stamp across it that say's TO AND FROM RANGE ONLY but you get around that because your a member of are club . These services no longer say that and explain that you can't use the excuse to carry because you belong to a 24 hour range.Back in the 70's & 80's many people used these services which were just a typing service that refered you to a gun club that had a range.These services made plenty of empty promises and never did anything to get you a carry permit.
 

strangequark87

New member
Hi. Just as a warning, I am not a lawyer, and cannot give lawful advice

I've done about 2 years of research regarding the entire permitting process. The police department or court of issuance (whether you are located up- or down- state) can place arbitrary administrative restrictions upon licensees in the state. Such is a function of the licensing officer. But this action is akin to the licensing officer saying on the license, "you like pink elephants." It has no bearing on law (PEN 400.00). When applying, all people who apply for a "restricted" sportsman class actually are applying for a Class F license which states in part, "(f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof." The county (or county police) cannot preempt the state by making the licenses more restrictive than the State allows (see Matter of Chwick v Mulvey (2010 NY Slip Op 09911)). These "restrictions" are meaningless, since the licensing officer cannot arbitrate law (because he is an unelected official in the executive branch) - separation of powers.

In short, once a Class F license is issued, go about your business as the law (PEN 400.00(f)) prescribes. I do.
 

hunter won

New member
Hi. Just as a warning, I am not a lawyer, and cannot give lawful advice

I've done about 2 years of research regarding the entire permitting process. The police department or court of issuance (whether you are located up- or down- state) can place arbitrary administrative restrictions upon licensees in the state. Such is a function of the licensing officer. But this action is akin to the licensing officer saying on the license, "you like pink elephants." It has no bearing on law (PEN 400.00). When applying, all people who apply for a "restricted" sportsman class actually are applying for a Class F license which states in part, "(f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof." The county (or county police) cannot preempt the state by making the licenses more restrictive than the State allows (see Matter of Chwick v Mulvey (2010 NY Slip Op 09911)). These "restrictions" are meaningless, since the licensing officer cannot arbitrate law (because he is an unelected official in the executive branch) - separation of powers.

In short, once a Class F license is issued, go about your business as the law (PEN 400.00(f)) prescribes. I do.
Every county may place restrictions and do revolk licenses for people who get caught carrying out of restriction.Case law already allows counties to apply restrictions.This latest case had to do with a Nassau County resident who had a colored gun which was illegal to own and possess in Nassau County.This case doesn't effect license restrictions by the county.The only case is the Westchester law suit which is going for proper cause to issue a carry license.The SCOTUS only addressed an individual right to self defense but never anything about concealed carry.If Westchester is a win that well change things and open the door for the rest of the state.
 

nogods

Active member
Hi. Just as a warning, I am not a lawyer, and cannot give lawful advice

I've done about 2 years of research regarding the entire permitting process. The police department or court of issuance (whether you are located up- or down- state) can place arbitrary administrative restrictions upon licensees in the state. Such is a function of the licensing officer. But this action is akin to the licensing officer saying on the license, "you like pink elephants." It has no bearing on law (PEN 400.00). When applying, all people who apply for a "restricted" sportsman class actually are applying for a Class F license which states in part, "(f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof." The county (or county police) cannot preempt the state by making the licenses more restrictive than the State allows (see Matter of Chwick v Mulvey (2010 NY Slip Op 09911)). These "restrictions" are meaningless, since the licensing officer cannot arbitrate law (because he is an unelected official in the executive branch) - separation of powers.

In short, once a Class F license is issued, go about your business as the law (PEN 400.00(f)) prescribes. I do.

NY's highest court, the Court of Appeals, has upheld target, hunting, and other restrictions on licenses. state law does not preempt such restrictions, rather it allows for them according to the Court of Appeals. O'Brien v. Keegan, 87 N.Y.2d 436

The issue with regard to Penal Law 265 is a matter of statutory construction. It has nothing to to do with preemption or constitutional rights.

So if you are caught in a 7-11 carrying concealed at 2 am while walking your dog and you only have a permit restricted to target.hunting, although you can't be convicted under Penal Law 265, the licensing officer can revoke or further restrict your permit.
 

riffmaker

New member
Picked up my permit yesterday

On my permit that I picked up yesterday, it says, restricted "recreational purposes". I asked does that mean walking, jogging, golf, bowling, fishing..ect. The clerk said yes. So basically I have a full carry permit as long aws im doing something recreational. I love my county.
 
u wish

On my permit that I picked up yesterday, it says, restricted "recreational purposes". I asked does that mean walking, jogging, golf, bowling, fishing..ect. The clerk said yes. So basically I have a full carry permit as long aws im doing something recreational. I love my county.

i live upstate newyork i have my ccw and non residency for pa. you can not carry concealed on a restricted license. can u drive on a restricted license.you long island ppl want to cc so bad . when u know you cant . so please stop.
 

riffmaker

New member
i live upstate newyork i have my ccw and non residency for pa. you can not carry concealed on a restricted license. can u drive on a restricted license.you long island ppl want to cc so bad . when u know you cant . so please stop.


Well first of all, I do not live in Long Island. I live in "upstate NY". I can carry anytime I am am hunting, fishing , walking , hiking, jogging, target practicing and I also have an exception to carry at work. So I would think I can just about carry 99.9% of the time without a worry. As soon as I join that 24/7 range it will change to 100% of the time. Do you really think a leo upstate is going to be that concerned with your restrictions, unless your doing something real stupid. Backpack in the trunk, next to my fishing pole and hiking boots and dont forget the pile of targets. Im good to go.
 

hunter won

New member
Well first of all, I do not live in Long Island. I live in "upstate NY". I can carry anytime I am am hunting, fishing , walking , hiking, jogging, target practicing and I also have an exception to carry at work. So I would think I can just about carry 99.9% of the time without a worry. As soon as I join that 24/7 range it will change to 100% of the time. Do you really think a leo upstate is going to be that concerned with your restrictions, unless your doing something real stupid. Backpack in the trunk, next to my fishing pole and hiking boots and dont forget the pile of targets. Im good to go.
Shopping at a mall going to a bank eating at a restaurant is how many guys get their pistol licenses suspended/revolked.A 24/7 range excuse wont work.You can apply for an unrestricted license about a year after to remove the restrictions.Upstate has a lifetime license,Westchester,NYC,Nassau and Suffolk must be renewed every 3-5 years.The current law suit in Westchester may give everyone a full carry.Everyone write their Senator to sign the Shall carry bill.This well do away with the proper cause requirement for full carry.
 
why no ccw

Well first of all, I do not live in Long Island. I live in "upstate NY". I can carry anytime I am am hunting, fishing , walking , hiking, jogging, target practicing and I also have an exception to carry at work. So I would think I can just about carry 99.9% of the time without a worry. As soon as I join that 24/7 range it will change to 100% of the time. Do you really think a leo upstate is going to be that concerned with your restrictions, unless your doing something real stupid. Backpack in the trunk, next to my fishing pole and hiking boots and dont forget the pile of targets. Im good to go.

why dont you have a unrestricted ccw. if you have live upstate. you can not carry on a restricted license. my license has no restriction and you do so whats the difference.how can we both carry, it makes no sence
 

riffmaker

New member
why dont you have a unrestricted ccw. if you have live upstate. you can not carry on a restricted license. my license has no restriction and you do so whats the difference.how can we both carry, it makes no sence

My license states license to carry. It is the same as yours except that the restriction limits where and when. It is still a license to carry concealed. There are 2 types of pistol licenses in NY, premise and carry. Anytime I carry within my restrictions, it must be concealed. My restrictions are very liberal, so thats why I said I carry most of the time. So if im hiking, walking, fishing, or working(i have the exception for work also)I must have it concealed. Although there is not a law against open carry, it is assumed that you cant in NY, because you could be charged with brandishing. The big difference between yours and mine is, for example, I want to go to walmart at 11pm. My restrictions technically say I cant carry because i am not doing a recreational activity. With your permit you can without any worries.
 

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