Answer me this

[longslide10]

Is a community college considered a secondary school and would it fall under:

Title 18 § 912 Possession of Weapon on School Property.

I've been told both yes, no and unsure.

 

[BC1]

For most states a school is any organization controlled by, organized under or operated under state education law. In some states that can include a public library too.

 

[Phillip Gain]

So why would you come HERE with that kind of a legal question?

That's the kind of thing to ask a reputable attorney.

 

[rdm6680]

So why would you come HERE with that kind of a legal question?

That's the kind of thing to ask a reputable attorney.

It's a gun forum.

 

[longslide10]

So why would you come HERE with that kind of a legal question?

That's the kind of thing to ask a reputable attorney.

First of all, I don't trust attorneys and finding a reputable one is a chore in itself, secondly I listed that under Pennsylvania because it deals directly with our laws and hoped someone in my state had the answer and would be able to clarify it. I asked an assistant at the PA attorney generals office and he said colleges weren't specifically listed and the law kind of general so he was unsure but suggested not to carry a gun in one. I had a recently retired city cop tell me no it wasn't illegal but suggested I not carry in one either. I asked a friends wife who works as a legal assistant in a law firm ask one of the lawyers if it was illegal and the answer was yes, a school is a school or something to that matter. Maybe someone here has a definitive answer.

 

[eagleeyes]

in florida it's illegal to carry on any school elementary junior or college or even a jr college or technical trade school but if college citizens had the right to carry at school i bet that cho guy and other school shootings wouldn't have had so many victims imo i think all teachers and school staff should carry as well of age students who are mentally fit

 

[Bighouse Doc]

First of all, I don't trust attorneys and finding a reputable one is a chore in itself, secondly I listed that under Pennsylvania because it deals directly with our laws and hoped someone in my state had the answer and would be able to clarify it. I asked an assistant at the PA attorney generals office and he said colleges weren't specifically listed and the law kind of general so he was unsure but suggested not to carry a gun in one. I had a recently retired city cop tell me no it wasn't illegal but suggested I not carry in one either. I asked a friends wife who works as a legal assistant in a law firm ask one of the lawyers if it was illegal and the answer was yes, a school is a school or something to that matter. Maybe someone here has a definitive answer.

So you trust anonymous people on the internet, but not practicing attornneys licensed to practice law by your state?

-Doc

 

[Phillip Gain]

First of all, I don't trust attorneys and finding a reputable one is a chore in itself

I am friends with a few attorneys. All the ones I know are pretty honest, and will advocate fiercely on behalf of a client. There are disreputable ones, like your ambulance chasers and ones who represent certain organized criminal elements. But most attorneys don't fall into this category.

secondly I listed that under Pennsylvania because it deals directly with our laws and hoped someone in my state had the answer and would be able to clarify it. I asked an assistant at the PA attorney generals office and he said colleges weren't specifically listed and the law kind of general so he was unsure but suggested not to carry a gun in one.

Provided that the assistant to whom you spoke wasn't an idiot or having an off day, this would seem to indicate that the language of the law is ambiguous. His suggestion that you not carry in one would indicate that he thought you'd stand a chance of being prosecuted if you were discovered doing so.

I had a recently retired city cop tell me no it wasn't illegal but suggested I not carry in one either.

Police officers - especially retired ones - are generally not to be considered reliable sources of information about firearms laws. However...in this case, it seems that the retired cop is telling you almost the same thing as what the AG's assistant is telling you. Again, sounds like a case of an ambiguously-written law.

I asked a friends wife who works as a legal assistant in a law firm ask one of the lawyers if it was illegal and the answer was yes, a school is a school or something to that matter. Maybe someone here has a definitive answer.

A friend's wife's boss? I'd consider that third-hand information at best. But again...it would seem to me that this attorney would be erring on the side of caution, due once again to an ambiguously written law.

So in other words - you have an ambiguously-written law, and three independent and (at least) somewhat reliable opinions saying that you could possibly be prosecuted if you were caught carrying a firearm on the premises of a community college. And yet you still want to bring the question to a forum, hoping that some stranger at his keyboard will give you a MORE definitive answer than the AG's office, a retired cop, and a licensed attorney?

May I suggest approaching this from another angle? I would submit that probably no one has gotten caught carrying on a community college campus since the law was written. If so, this means the ambiguously-written law is un-tried in court. Consider that, if you chose to carry, you could end up being the "test case" for this law. Consider whether or not you have the resources to hire an attorney (provided you can find a reputable one you trust) and pay his fees and your court costs if you are arrested and tried. Consider whether you're willing to risk doing the time if convicted. Consider how serious the risk to your life and safety actually is, if you choose to not carry. Then make your decision.

 

[PAcarrier]

Hey Longslide10, always glad to hear from you.

There's almost no one who would, if their job was on the line, tell you to go ahead and carry in any given circumstance when lines are drawn so unclearly.

While I might echo Phillip's sentiment about erring on the side of caution, too much caution can be a contributor to deadly circumstances. The exception that I would emphasize is that possible and probable can be very far apart. Bear in mind that I'm not advocating something illegal, but I'm also saying that you should be prepared to defend your own life if the circumstance warrants it.

If such a situation should arise, the interpretation of the law will be in effect, no matter how ambiguous the law. Yet, you (and/or those around you) might be alive because you are prepared versus the "protect & serve" misinformation, which in reality is only "serve" not protect.

Isn't this really the case in every gun-related matter? Meaning that you could be carrying legally (even within the unambiguous law), defend yourself according to the law, and you still will be subject to the interpretation of the law by someone else. As well-meaning as we all might be, it's a lottery or crap-shoot effect for any of us, if the truth be told.

Our legal system leaves much to be desired in terms of actually penalizing the real criminals, yet draws a hard line against those who are not "PC". BTW, we are, and may never again be "PC" in what we do. What's right is wrong and what's wrong is right. I hate to say it, but that seems to be the rule of the present day.

Finally, if the rules by some unknown and ambiguous "authority" also don't protect my ability to maintain survival, I am (much like you) suspect about how to interpret their advice. In that case, I will err on the side of caution and keep my protection nearby (on me) to deal with the legal (lottery) consequences later.

 

[Caribou]

Any college is postsecondary education. Whether it is legal in your State is defined by your laws and your case law. Read the law, if you are still unclear as to the meaning then hire an attorney. You might also want to take into consideration the political atmosphere in your area. Many people have been prosecuted for non-crimes all over the country.

You might also ask the college to define the law and their policy. If they don't want your gun then take an online course or move to a State that allows guns on campus.

 

[longslide10]

So you trust anonymous people on the internet, but not practicing attornneys licensed to practice law by your state?

-Doc

Yeah I do. I am just asking if there is someone IN MY STATE that can point me to a person in the know in MY STATE so I can get a definite yes or no answer. I am not asking an anonymous person if they think it's ok. The internet is a good place to get answers to questions by the way dumbass. Have you ever tried calling attorneys for questions on law without getting a runaround or having to pay them first?

 

[longslide10]

I am friends with a few attorneys. All the ones I know are pretty honest, and will advocate fiercely on behalf of a client. There are disreputable ones, like your ambulance chasers and ones who represent certain organized criminal elements. But most attorneys don't fall into this category.



Provided that the assistant to whom you spoke wasn't an idiot or having an off day, this would seem to indicate that the language of the law is ambiguous. His suggestion that you not carry in one would indicate that he thought you'd stand a chance of being prosecuted if you were discovered doing so.



Police officers - especially retired ones - are generally not to be considered reliable sources of information about firearms laws. However...in this case, it seems that the retired cop is telling you almost the same thing as what the AG's assistant is telling you. Again, sounds like a case of an ambiguously-written law.



A friend's wife's boss? I'd consider that third-hand information at best. But again...it would seem to me that this attorney would be erring on the side of caution, due once again to an ambiguously written law.

So in other words - you have an ambiguously-written law, and three independent and (at least) somewhat reliable opinions saying that you could possibly be prosecuted if you were caught carrying a firearm on the premises of a community college. And yet you still want to bring the question to a forum, hoping that some stranger at his keyboard will give you a MORE definitive answer than the AG's office, a retired cop, and a licensed attorney?

May I suggest approaching this from another angle? I would submit that probably no one has gotten caught carrying on a community college campus since the law was written. If so, this means the ambiguously-written law is un-tried in court. Consider that, if you chose to carry, you could end up being the "test case" for this law. Consider whether or not you have the resources to hire an attorney (provided you can find a reputable one you trust) and pay his fees and your court costs if you are arrested and tried. Consider whether you're willing to risk doing the time if convicted. Consider how serious the risk to your life and safety actually is, if you choose to not carry. Then make your decision.

Some wise words Philip. What I am trying to find is, someone who can say "talk to so and so at such and such an office, he has the answer you seek". I don't like ambiguous laws and I don't want to be the guinea pig but I also don't want to be w/o my sidearm if there is no reason to be w/o. I don't know, maybe I shouldn't have brought this to the forum.

 

[longslide10]

Any college is postsecondary education. Whether it is legal in your State is defined by your laws and your case law. Read the law, if you are still unclear as to the meaning then hire an attorney. You might also want to take into consideration the political atmosphere in your area. Many people have been prosecuted for non-crimes all over the country.

You might also ask the college to define the law and their policy. If they don't want your gun then take an online course or move to a State that allows guns on campus.

That's the problem my state doesn't say "post secondary". It just says elementary and secondary. What I am trying to clear up is what they define as secondary. I know K-12, like many states a serious crime to carry w/in 100 ft of but the law doesn't specify if colleges are considered secondary and from what I hear from those that should know (AG assistant, a cop ret., a lawyer) is it's still unclear. So on goes my quest for info. Seems I'll have more calls to make.

 

[longslide10]

Thanks to all of you who posted. There are some good replies albeit more from out of state than I expected but I appreciate your input and some of you still rub me the wrong way so don't get all twisted if I curse at ya.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Best answer you're likely going to get is the law itself...

[h=1]18 Pa.C.S. § 912: Possession of weapon on school property[/h]

(a) Definition.--Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nunchuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

(b) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

(c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

18 Pa.C.S. § 912: Possession of weapon on school property

As far as the definition of "secondary school"...

secondary schooln. A school that is intermediate in level between elementary school and college and that usually offers general, technical, vocational, or college-preparatory curricula.

secondary schooln (Social Science / Education) a school for young people, usually between the ages of 11 and 18

1.	secondary school - a school for students intermediate between elementary school and college; usually grades 9 to 12

...tried to get rid of the damned cartoon bus.


Cliff's Notes version: There is no law or statute in PA prohibiting firearms on college campuses, although it would be wise to determine policies. A student might risk expulsion, a visitor might risk a trespassing violation, but even that might be a stretch only said visitor refused to leave.
.

 

[Bighouse Doc]

Yeah I do. I am just asking if there is someone IN MY STATE that can point me to a person in the know in MY STATE so I can get a definite yes or no answer. I am not asking an anonymous person if they think it's ok. The internet is a good place to get answers to questions by the way dumbass. Have you ever tried calling attorneys for questions on law without getting a runaround or having to pay them first?

Imagine that. Free legal advice.

Often worth every penny of it too!

-Doc

 

[Phillip Gain]

Best answer you're likely going to get is the law itself...



18 Pa.C.S. § 912: Possession of weapon on school property

As far as the definition of "secondary school"...

secondary schooln. A school that is intermediate in level between elementary school and college and that usually offers general, technical, vocational, or college-preparatory curricula.

secondary schooln (Social Science / Education) a school for young people, usually between the ages of 11 and 18

1.	secondary school - a school for students intermediate between elementary school and college; usually grades 9 to 12

...tried to get rid of the damned cartoon bus.


Cliff's Notes version: There is no law or statute in PA prohibiting firearms on college campuses, although it would be wise to determine policies. A student might risk expulsion, a visitor might risk a trespassing violation, but even that might be a stretch only said visitor refused to leave.
.

Just a follow-up. In the absence of a definition within the statute, courts have on occasion simply referenced a dictionary. A quick look on the web reveals that "secondary" generally refers to high school - grades 9 to 12. Colleges, community colleges, and universities are generally referred to as "post-secondary" or less often "tertiary."

This could still be problematic depending on the nature of the school. For example, a community college that has grade 9-12 students enrolled in vo-tech (secondary) courses, while simultaneously offering adult education (post-secondary) courses), could be a grey area under the law.

Tread carefully. If you choose to carry, be extra vigilant about concealment.

 

[longslide10]

Just a follow-up. In the absence of a definition within the statute, courts have on occasion simply referenced a dictionary. A quick look on the web reveals that "secondary" generally refers to high school - grades 9 to 12. Colleges, community colleges, and universities are generally referred to as "post-secondary" or less often "tertiary."

This could still be problematic depending on the nature of the school. For example, a community college that has grade 9-12 students enrolled in vo-tech (secondary) courses, while simultaneously offering adult education (post-secondary) courses), could be a grey area under the law.

Tread carefully. If you choose to carry, be extra vigilant about concealment.

Good point and there is vocational classes there that could be harboring sub-adults ! I've decided that the law is too undefined so I am not going to carry in the school. I don't need the aggravation right now and don't wish to be forbidden to take my classes.

 

[wolf_fire]

I know I don't want my tombstone to read "He was cautious and wasn't sure, so he didn't carry today".

I carry concealed, and while I do not recommend breaking the law, I have looked through the PA codes and have not found any specificity about colleges. Now each college might have its own rules (and I know a few around Pittsburgh that do), but the state of PA has chosen not to specify this. Therefore, I would carry concealed and not be a victim like others have at certain colleges recently. When I refer to the word concealed, I mean I do not tell anyone that I am carrying, I do not post signs on my vehicle that I'm an NRA member or any other posting that is gun-related. It's no one's business what or when I carry.

Also, a clarification about secondary versus elementary. In the state of PA elementary covers K-6 and secondary covers 7-12 according to the PA Dept of Education. Therefore, it would be reasonable to assert that the state code when referring to elementary and secondary schools is using this definition.

 

[longslide10]

I know I don't want my tombstone to read "He was cautious and wasn't sure, so he didn't carry today".

I carry concealed, and while I do not recommend breaking the law, I have looked through the PA codes and have not found any specificity about colleges. Now each college might have its own rules (and I know a few around Pittsburgh that do), but the state of PA has chosen not to specify this. Therefore, I would carry concealed and not be a victim like others have at certain colleges recently. When I refer to the word concealed, I mean I do not tell anyone that I am carrying, I do not post signs on my vehicle that I'm an NRA member or any other posting that is gun-related. It's no one's business what or when I carry.

Also, a clarification about secondary versus elementary. In the state of PA elementary covers K-6 and secondary covers 7-12 according to the PA Dept of Education. Therefore, it would be reasonable to assert that the state code when referring to elementary and secondary schools is using this definition.

I agree wholeheartedly with your first statement.

I generally carry everywhere even the courthouse, city county bldg and the state capitol bldg but not to the school offering this course I am taking---can't risk being booted off campus. How would that look to a potential employer? I have come to find out they have a no weapons sign on the doors so reluctantly I'll choose to comply with their wishes but I will confront the administration as to why they chose to throw up those "victims inside" signs.