Another SC Home Defense Shooting
Seems that there are two sides:
Shoot over "stuff" and don't shoot over stuff.
Shoot to defend life and limb seems to be in agreement.
In my home, a hail of 40SW will greet an intruder, outside over "stuff", don't know. If I go out it will be with Mr sig.
Just my 2c, :pleasantry:
 

I seriously doubt anyone is really going to call 911 just because they heard a noise outside, without investigating first.

Call and tell 'em what? "I heard a noise outside!"? Not very likely.

Just sayin'
 
Hey kerb: We are not talking about a tree limb moving or a bush brushing against the house when we say "noise" and IMO you are wrong when you pooh pooh the idea of calling 911. At least where I live, the LEOs encourage you to call them literally on anything, and I cannot remember the number of times I have talked with the Chief and he reiterates this comment over and over again. That is what they are there for--I guess you will do what you have to and I will do what I consider the correct thing to do.
 
:sarcastic:
Red Hat said:
I wouldn't have called 911. If I hear something outside I'm going to investigate it first. If I have to wait on a deputy to come out the BG will load up half of my property and leave. In SC there is no requirement to call 911 and our Castle Doctrine allows for protection of property. If I don't know who they are and they are going through my stuff and they fail to comply with my demands they probably will get shot. I'm not going to wait around to see what they are going to do. If someone wants to steal from me they will suffer legal consequences. There are too many cases since SC passing the Castle Doctrine to support his actions. That's why no charges were filed. All I can say is; BG's if you are going to rob and steal in SC be warned...the person you accost may be armed and has the legal right to blow you away!
Click to expand...
 
Not sure what loredec has to say since he had no reply but I did read his highlight of Red Hat. Red Hat tells me that if the perp does not obey he will be shot. He also tells me that SC law will allow the perp to be shot if he is committing an illegal act on his property. The one thing he left out of his comments is the fact that it is as easy for the perp to be shot as it is for Red Hat to be shot and killed, if he is up against someone or several people who are better at this than him and better armed than him--and his death is all about "stuff". I understand where many are coming from and we can all agree to disagree on this point--my "stuff" is insured and replaceable--I am not. Now if they decide they want the "stuff" in my locked bedroom where my wife and I are (no children in other parts of house), all bets are off--now it gets "in my face and personal" and my "presumption of imminent death or great bodily injury" is acute and very real. I know where I am and they do not and they will learn a terrible lesson about breaking the law in SC, when it comes to Castle Doctrine. We have gone around on this before, so I want to emphasize --you do what you gotta do and I will do what I gotta do. I understand your point of view--just disagree on the importance of stuff--and I understand "my limitations" as Dirty Harry would say.
 
I get this conversation going each class on purpose. Having already discussed the law for a "clean" Self Defense shooting. Before we get started, I give them a copy of the S.C. Protection of Persons and Property Act (Castle Doctrine) and ask that they read it for themselves. Then I ask that they highlight parts of the law such as, intruder, attacker, where you have a right to be, etc....
I then manufacture a "scenario" such as this original thread, and ask what actions that they would take IF it happened to them. Once they decide upon a course of action, I require them to "justify" their actions with the authority of the Castle Doctrine before them. I will state that it is ALWAYS a good idea to call 911 and inform them with as much information as possible such as number of persons, description, weapons observed etc....THEN GET OFF of the telephone! DO NOT stay on the line with the 911 operator as they normally request....you are going to NEED all of your attention paid to the situation at hand!
As you might imagine we have thoughts from a 30-06 with a night vision device from a bedroom window, to a "Dirty Harry" approach in the yard.
Without boring you, the bottom line is ONLY the homeowner or Self Defense shooter will be on the witness stand justifing his/her actions and "in my humble opinion", to use deadly force and take a human (or maybe not) life protecting your "property" will be very difficult to justify in court. I do believe we should be thankful we live in a State that supports our rights in this matter.
 
We are trying to get castle doctrine in Pennsylvania. One important provision of the proposed legislation is immunity from civil suit in the case of a justifiable shooting. Does S.C. castle doctrine have the civil suit exemption clause. If not, this gentleman may be facing an expensive defense in such proceedings. Win or lose, the lawyers will wear this poor guy out.
 
C45man

Yes, we do. H.4301 was signed on June 9,2006, "in-part" the law states: " a person who lawfully uses deadly force is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action"....
STILL...having said that, we know that every bullet has a Lawyers Name and checking account number on it..
Good Luck in PA.
 
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Hey SD CWP--thanks for compliment. I really enjoy and, most importantly, learn a lot about many things CC. I do not ever expect to have to use info (I am 69 and, to date, never have come close) but learning is a never-ending experience and there is always something. As far as the initial thread is concerned, I have learned that my original comments about the older gentleman shooting the youngster and not being prosecuted, are incorrect and that Section 17-13-20 of the SC Code of Laws does allow for someone to attempt an arrest at night and, if the perp attempts to escape, he can be shot and killed--so the older gentleman was within SC law to fire upon the youngster. Bottom line in SC--if you are a perp, you take your life in your hands everytime you decide to break the law.
 
Having called the law over an individual in my driveway trying to break into my truck 2 AM in morning, I was told officer was coming, well he might have been but he did not make it to my home in some 15 minutes, perp left as I exited rear door, officer was somewhat offended when he arrived (wasted time issue). Texas allows protection of propety. I will be glad to hold the BG until officer arrives. Coming into home all bets are off.
 
Hey nightmare: As I said in my last reply, holding the perp (essentially a citizen's arrest) here in SC, allows me to do everything, including shooting the perp and killing him, if he does not obey my commands and attempts to flee (the law specifies this "at night"). I would think that TX has similar codes of law that would ensure your "wait until the BG comes" allows you similar discretion. As I said and I heartily agree---you enter my home (more particularly my locked bedroom) and I will have no compulsion in making sure it is the last home you enter.
 
Nightmare 45

...Sometimes a tough decision we gotta make. I understand you. There is just no "book" answers to this, it's kinda like elbows.
As far as the the PEACE officed being offended that you wasted his time. That is another issue with me. I normally discuss this in class. In my opinion, I feel we taxpayers need to explain to the officer that we feel the same way about paying our taxes. With the so-called "protection services" we receive, maybe we need to get some PEACE officers who want to work for us taxpayers.
I strongly encourage all persons I interface with on a daily basis to make a note....name, badge number, time of day, etc....all the details of a "less than pleasant" exchange with a PEACE officer. Go to your computer as you have time, while all of the facts are on your mind and make a "memo for the record" and make an appointment to speak before the town council, county council, etc.. and present your complaint before the council, "in writing" with a copy to each member.
I believe if we taxpayers do this, we will all keep our good PEACE officers and terminate those who feel they work for the Washington Hall of Terrorism in Washington, D.C., or whom ever they feel they work for. They must be reminded they work for us taxpaying citizens of the community, are are hired to perform basic "civil" violations of the State/County/City laws. NOT some national bad boys law enforcement militia.
 
Hey Self Defense: If you have a good police dept and a good chief, your criticisms of particular LEOs will be nil if not minimal and if they do occur, they will be heard. Sometimes your interpretation of an event with an LEO may be incorrect, even though you believe otherwise and that also should be taken into consideration when you speak to the chief about an incident. I would think that in any interraction between an LEO and a citizen, it is occurring during a stressful moment more in your life than the LEO and this should also be kept in mind. Not sayin it all falls on the citizen--LEOs make mistakes, they have bad days, and some just do not belong on the force--just sayin that if your LEO department is any good, avenues are there for complaints and, in some instances, you may be wrong in your assessment.
 
I am not in anyway stating officer attitude was anything but an isolated incident. At the moment it just kind of pissed me off. Standing in driveway in my PJ's and pump shotgun.
 
....attitudes..

...actually, I understand you both. I don't feel I wrongly judged all of the PEACE officer community. I do not know the stats about the normal taxpayer calling 911, but I would reason a guess that most adult taxpayers have called a peace officer for assistance less than three times in a lifetime.
Secondly, I believe 98% of the peace officers training should be in how to deal with the taxpayer. We all make mistakes, but when my family is in danger is not a good time to explain to me I have made a mistake in calling for assistance. IF that needs to be discussed at all, it should not be discussed with the taxpayer.....it should be brought up to the peace officers Supervisor, by the officer who felt he was called out needlessly and forwarded up the Chain of Command, IF appropriate. This method will allow the peace officer to do his job "on the scene" without distraction and allow the Supervisor to "counsel" the peace officer in how to deal with the taxpayer OR escalate the peace officers complaint up the Chain of Command for possible resolution at the "decision making level".
Lastly, many more times than we would like to admit, our complaints which are brought before the Chief will be swept under the carpet because the Chief is not normally an elected position. So, in effect he does not work for the taxpayer. While if your put your thoughts in writing and take them to your elected officials you will not only record this event, but it will allow all in the Chain of Command to work with the officer to prevent a second event. Sometimes, peace officers view us ALL as the ENEMY...we are not. We are citizens/civilians like them and do make mistakes of "civil" law...running a traffic light, speeding, etc. therefore we all should be treated respectfully UNTIL our actions dictate otherwise. In summary, if you PULL your handgun without using it, you can be charged with Brandishing...however far tooo many "little ole ladies" have had a peace officers handgun pointed at them, dragged out of their cars..etc...(note: approximately 40-50% of our population are NOT taxpayers, so your call for assistance should be handled with priority.)
 
Hey Self Defense: Your last comments were well said. In most council meetings that I go to, the Chief is usually in attendance; if I really am upset (never have been) , I will speak out to the council right in front of him, which should get his immediate attention. We have an online complaint form for LEO activities that goes to the chief and is answered quickly. In my town I have heard it a million times---anything, anytime--call us. There are some people who use 911 or LEOs for ridiculous reasons--I agree with you that the LEO should withhold his real feelings when on the scene and have someone in the town deal with the idiots-not sure who that is, but he is better off not starting up with an idiot, who ie :did not get a pickle on her big mac and calls 911
 
At 69?

kelcarry said:
Hey Self Defense: Your last comments were well said. In most council meetings that I go to, the Chief is usually in attendance; if I really am upset (never have been) , I will speak out to the council right in front of him, which should get his immediate attention. We have an on line complaint form for LEO activities that goes to the chief and is answered quickly. In my town I have heard it a million times---anything, anytime--call us. There are some people who use 911 or LEOs for ridiculous reasons--I agree with you that the LEO should withhold his real feelings when on the scene and have someone in the town deal with the idiots-not sure who that is, but he is better off not starting up with an idiot, who IE :did not get a pickle on her big mac and calls 911
Click to expand...

Hi Kelcarry,

I have not visited for a while, so had a few posts to catch up on.

Your previous post, in which you stated "at 69 you did not think you would be getting into a gun fight" or words to that effect? Had me chuckling, at the Dayton, Ohio IALEFI Annual Conference, in 2004, I was aged just that, 69, do the math, now 75.

My Lovely Wife and I stepped into the elevator (don't call it a lift anymore) on the ground floor of the Convention Hotel, early afternoon. Just as the doors were closing, in stepped well dressed man (collar and tie, suit) with his hi ball glass in hand, complete with olive?

He glanced at the bearded old guy, white one, looked at the exotic Indian Lady near the buttons (my Wife is Guyanese) stated he needed a hug! Lifted his left foot, to head towards the little big eyed Lady!

I stepped under his left arm, and took him into the back of elevator, at speed!

That must have hurt, those wooden bars at luggage cart level are hard.

I told him "Stay where you are, don't go near my Wife" He did, did not spill his drink either! Our floor was 2, we left, he might still be there!

Off topic? Sorry, thought I would let you into my morning chuckle, in talking this over that night, our Beer room was on the 10th floor, with other firearms Instructors, mostly Police, everyone said (I would have said, this, or that?)

With some one, with glass in hand, heading for your Wife said I? With the stated intention of physical contact? I dont think so. He was lucky I just arm barred him.

Breakfast calls, Bacon Butty?
 
Hey scouse: I believe,without backtracking on my replies, that I have said that in 69 years I have never had an occasion where a firearm has ever been necessary. Always a "what if" but, IMO, I am not going to get paranoid over a "what if". Just me sayin--that's all. Not so sure what a guy in a suit with a martini in hand has to do with a gunfight, but I guess it could be considered a "what if".
 
What if

You are right, could have gone bad, but not much chance.

I think I was just making the point, 69 is not past it, unless you have serious health problems. And I have had a few all mosts!!

Have a good one.

Scouse.
 
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