Another Case Of C & C Gone Wrong?

[doming83]

hey i just said if u start shit when your carrying a gun dont expect to be able to use it as self defence. If i personally dont say or do anything and the guys comes to my window, and punches me. He better belive ill defend my self.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey doming83: Sorry for misunderstanding your previous post. I certainly agree that if you are CC you should realize that you, more than others, must think of yourself at a much higher sense of responsibility when it comes to any kind of confrontation.

 

[JJFlash]

OK, guys, what DO we do in a confrontation, presently non-lethal, while we're carrying? To use my previous example: someone insults my wife, say in a public setting, I'm going to want to sock 'em. But I'm carrying. What do I do? Hand the gun to my wife (she has a carry permit)? Excuse myself for a minute, go put my weapon in my truck and come back? I've tried to envision how this would work and I can't. My wife says, in this case, we walk away. I've got a problem with that. And I can envision other scenarios in which someone NEEDS to be "corrected", at which point things might escalate. But I'm carrying. And, of course, I can easily imagine scuffling with someone and losing control of the weapon. So, all you guys out there who aren't gonna walk away, what do YOU do?

 

[kelcarry]

Hey JJFlash: In your last post you ask "what are you gonna do" if say someone talks trash to your wife. the answer is really simple in my view--"sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never harm me". If you are in CC mode, I would think you have put yourself in an elevated and different category of responsibility and CANNOT or SHOULD NOT exacerbate the situation by dealing with the idiot at his level--you just can't do it. Think about yourself on a jury as someone else explains their situation either because they have been charged with some form of crime relating to CC use or in a civil trial. That person will tell you the juror that Drunken Joe Blow called his wife a fat pig and he got in his face and told him to take it back or else; Drunken Joe Blow then punched him so he took our his CCW and shot him. Other people in the place of business pretty much told the same story. In my book, the CCWP guy has got a problem. We are talking about trash talk and a guy is dead for heavens sake and if he had just walked away no one would have been hurt. Just my opinion but I really feel that if I have a CCW on me, I just have to be a very different guy than I normally are, which is probably a little too excitable for my own good. I will have to "stomach" a lot more verbal abuse and being cutoff in traffic without being able to" give um the finger"; it comes with the territory of CC.

 

[JJFlash]

Kelcarry,

You know I basically agree with you (and have posted to that effect). I have no problem not giving someone the finger in traffic (I stopped doing that when I started carrying full-time). So, yeah, a lot of situations that I would have reacted to in the past (like you, I can be a bit "excitable"), I don't any longer. And I certainly am not advocating shooting someone for insulting my wife.

But some of our CC brethren have made good points, also, like if they would say something in a particular situation if they WEREN'T carrying, then they would still say it if they WERE carrying. And I can see the point: some idiot shoves a little old lady out of line, I'm gonna be hard-pressed not to say something. I obviously have no intention of shooting the fool, but there ya go...we're off and running.

So...are we letting these type of situations go if we're carrying? Are we only to react to potentially lethal situations? Any thing less, we shut up? I guess so...

 

[Glockster20]

As law abiding "gun toters", we should hold ourselves to higher standards. I try to avoid putting myself in situations that would facilitate a confrontation. Obscene gestures, aggressive driving, bad neighborhoods, etc..etc. I avoid these. Plain ole common sense is quite useful. If you are the pugnacious type and walk around with a "chip" on your shoulder, then you probably shouldn't be carrying a firearm. Someone like that is begging for trouble.

 

[JJFlash]

Come on, guys, you're missing the point (or I'm not getting it across clearly). Granted, looking-for-trouble "pugnacious" types have no business carrying. I got no problem with that idea. Just so you know, I am a VERY non-confrontational guy; you'd like me as your friend or neighbor. But, there is "injustice" all around; do we speak our piece, do we stand up for the underdog, the little old lady? I would readily do this before I carried. Now, I don't? I can think of lots of situations like this. I'm NOT looking for a reason to pull my weapon but I'm saying that any time we speak up, escalation is possible. So..."Sorry that bully pushed you, Grandma, but I'm carrying, you see, so, you're on your own"? Man, I KNOW you'd say something and that's the crux of the matter. (Well, Ok, I don't know, but I'm betting you might). So, again, we NEVER say anything?

 

[FN1910]

As law abiding "gun toters", we should hold ourselves to higher standards. I try to avoid putting myself in situations that would facilitate a confrontation. Obscene gestures, aggressive driving, bad neighborhoods, etc..etc. I avoid these. Plain ole common sense is quite useful. If you are the pugnacious type and walk around with a "chip" on your shoulder, then you probably shouldn't be carrying a firearm. Someone like that is begging for trouble.

While doing some more research on this shooter in the OP I think you have described him well with the "chip" on his shoulder. As for getting punched in the face and defending himself I am not buying that story quite yet. There is no evidence that the dead man did anything but walk up to his window. Only after the arrest did the story of throwing punches come out and only from the shooter. He had been know to start fights and just generally an agressive person.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey FN1910: I agree with you that all the facts in this case have never been fully discussed or verified. I think the real exercise here is to take these sketchy news articles and "what if" them. The posts in this thread tend to assume a fact in the case and then apply the posters opinion based on those assumptions. The posts that include facts that have not been shown to be accurate or are still unclear are still worthy when they include an opinion from a poster based on his assumptions. The posts become a "what if" exercise.

 

[titaniumman]

Just a thought...Why can't you punch the guy and not draw your weapon...i'm just sayin'leasantry:. If someone insults your wife that is.

 

[JJFlash]

Think about it...anything you say or do (like punching the guy) escalates the situation. That's exactly my point. So...say you're carrying, I insult your wife, you punch me. If you don't put me out of commission right away, it's on. Now we're grappling around. How long before your weapon comes out, either accidently or not? NOW, the sh#t is in the fan.

BTW, before someone misinterprets this, I have never and would never insult your wife or girfriend; not my style: I'm a friendly guy and I like my teeth where they are, thank you. But there are idiots out there...

 

[kelcarry]

Hey titaniuman: If the aggressive schmoe is such a moron that it is necessary for him to insult your wife for no apparent reason, why do you think he will not escalate his aggressive stupidiy after you punch him? When he does that and now pulls out a knife or goes to his car and comes back with a bat, or comes at you with murderous intent with fists raging, you now have precipitated an encounter that has changed from a few words to a potential CCW use. If there are witnesses to this entire incident, their comments may very well spell real trouble for you. Bottom line and I have heard this from many: If you have a CCW you DO NOT DO ANYTHING aggressive or in retaliation to stupidity or mean words or cutting off a car or a middle finger flip. If the schmoe is still active and will not accept your "not doing anything", you begin to think about witnesses in the area and you begin to talk to the schmoe loud enough for anyone to hear that you do not want any trouble and want bygones to be bygones and leave me alone. If the schmoe continues and now shows a bat, or a knife. or a bigger set of fists and muscle than you and this really puts "fear of serious injury (or thoughts of death) into your equation--at least in SC (a no retreat state) you can demonstrate to the schmoe what a life changing event is all about. It can always come down to convincing 12 people on a jury and you better have a real solid case for CCW use.

 

[wjh2657]

In Tennessee answer is simple. You brought the gun. You took part in the fight and antagonized your opponent. You shot him with said gun. Even if you feared for your life you still brought the gun to the fight and stayed. Fear for your life will get you down to manslaughter but not self defense. You may or may not get hard time, but you can kiss your HCP and voting rights goodbye. The prosecutor will argue that you made extraction from the fight impossible by your actions.

If you are carrying, keep your mouth shut, swallow your pride and walk away. If this runs against your grain, then don't carry. You may have a Constitutional right to bear arms, but you don't have a Constitutional right to shoot people you don't like. In the heat of a personal argument the distinction between the two can get blurred.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey wjh2657: Your comments were right on and, in my opinion, regardless of the state you live in. If I am on a jury and there is evidence that the CCW holder essentially increased the likelihood of aggressive actions that ended with the presentation and use of the CCW, I will require extraordinary evidence to prove to me that the CCW holder should not be penalized in some form or found guilty of some crime. Conversely, if you have done everything you can do to avoid increased aggression and have witnesses who heard you yelling in that vein, I will congratulate you for not being a sheep in front of a wolf.

 

[ecocks]

It's not always about you though.

Take the situation I was in about 30 years ago.

Wafflehouse restaurant, 11:00 at night, two truly stereotypical rednecks making escalating comments about a young black man eating in the restaurant at the time. Do you stay across the room and turn your head to look out the window because you have a firearm on your belt? Do you get up and leave, hoping to get to a phone and call police before there's an explosion of violence? Of course if they fight, your intercession might be appropriately justified as preventing a felony assault of possible manslaughter. Without the first punch being throw though do you dare say a word to attempt to diffuse them?

I'm asking the question, "If your ethics and morals would have required you to involve yourself if there was no gun, can you 'just walk away' only because you chose to carry a weapon this evening?"

I don't think this is an easy question to answer but maybe someone has some well-thought-out response which fits this situation and still would allow you to sleep at night if something did, in fact, explode.

 

[6shootercarry]

My high school wood shop teacher was a good life teacher as well. He said something to the effect of "If you bring the desire to have a conflict with you when you go out, conflict will find you and at some point in time you will find yourself in conflict with someone who can defend themselves better than you”. “If you’re lucky it will hurt just your pride”. “If not so lucky you could die.” He was a trained and certified black belt (Karate & Kempo if I can recall) and a self defense instructor part time. I keep that in mind and tell others when they have a case of more attitude than brains syndrome. Violence will beget violence…
From the initial article read it seemed to me that it was a case of mistakes in judgment on both sides. Leaving the scene and not calling for LEOs on the part of the shooter makes the "I feel guilty" thing hard for me to dismiss.

 

[6shootercarry]

It's not always about you though.

Take the situation I was in about 30 years ago.

Wafflehouse restaurant, 11:00 at night, two truly stereotypical rednecks making escalating comments about a young black man eating in the restaurant at the time. Do you stay across the room and turn your head to look out the window because you have a firearm on your belt? Do you get up and leave, hoping to get to a phone and call police before there's an explosion of violence? Of course if they fight, your intercession might be appropriately justified as preventing a felony assault of possible manslaughter. Without the first punch being throw though do you dare say a word to attempt to diffuse them?

I'm asking the question, "If your ethics and morals would have required you to involve yourself if there was no gun, can you 'just walk away' only because you chose to carry a weapon this evening?"

I don't think this is an easy question to answer but maybe someone has some well-thought-out response which fits this situation and still would allow you to sleep at night if something did, in fact, explode.

This is by far the toughest question of them all. Here’s my take, and since this is open forum, by all means have a ball with this one.
Once you involve yourself in the situation it becomes about you. Perhaps you have strong feelings about “blind hatred”. Blind seething hatred, that’s been taught since birth by those who were taught the same. Because of the color of skin, the slant of eyes, the cloth on his head, the Star of David that hangs around his neck. Not like me so I hate him!!!… I could go on and on…
Here is the situation in which you become the witness while the taunting and teasing ensue, as painful as it may be to hear. Keep good mental note of the events. Make mention to the owner of the establishment that there may be a fight here if nothing is done to stop what you have been witnessing. Act if and when the action begins by first deciding if you need to intervene and try to keep peace if possible. Maybe the guy is one of those “better at self defense than would be anticipated” types? When asked by the LEO who responds if you wish to make a statement say yes and relay the events with no emotion and as accurately as possible. If need be, due to the severity of the event if it gets to that point, when asked to appear in court as a witness DO… And perhaps Justice will be had by all…

 

[kelcarry]

Hey ecocks: The "what ifs" in this forum are really very good exercises for all of us and I anxiously await the varied "what ifs" that my fellow forum users can come up with and the replies that result. In SC we have the alter ego rule as part of our CCW laws, which basically states that if someone is being attacked and you believe that they are in imminent danger of serious injury or death, you can intercede with deadly force as if it were you being attacked. With that being said, it would be my view (opinion) that unless this other individual, whoever he is, is being physically assaulted and is being pummeled senseless or is facing a weapon, SC law will not allow you to use your CCW to defend him. Words and verbal assaults do not count--"sticks and stones (and fists and guns and knives) may break my bones but words will never harm me". You may feel a moral obligation to the black dude to intercede but you have to walk away if you are CCW--this situation has a way of biting you since no physical assault has occurred; escalation may occur AFTER you stick your CCW into the equation and it is your fault at that time. You've got to call the police and stay out of the situation.

 

[JJFlash]

I'm trying to think of another approach besides walking away (that just grates on me) and directly interceding and escalating the situation. Ok, suppose you approach the black dude and say something friendly like: "hey, why don't you come sit with me and eat?". You haven't said anything to the jackasses who were harassing him. Now, they turn on you but you refuse to bite, attempt to calmly de-escalate the situation, etc. etc. At this point, if they escalate to physical violence, are you justified in using appropriate measures? Or simply by sticking your nose into the situation, are you going to be faulted?

 

[ecocks]

Hey guys, Even though this is a serious topic, I am regarding this as a casual beer and pizza conversation, not a Supreme Court argument.

It is a tough question and I truly don't know the answer. That's especially true since each individual has their own sense of ethics and morality to apply to the situation.