Ann Coulter on Gun Control

MilShooter

New member
I just read this piece from conservative columnist Ann Coulter entitled "Negroes With Guns". While I suspect that most of us already know much of what she discusses, it is a worthwhile refresher.

In your next conversation with a member of any "racial minority" who supports the Democratic Party, some of these facts might be useful to you. I was unaware, for example, that the impetus for our modern gun control laws dates back to 1640. This Virginia law, the first law on gun control, forbade blacks from owning guns. From then on, until present day, it appears that Democrats were supporters of denying blacks - both slaves and freemen - their rights under the constitution. And we all know that the laws since then were not specifically aimed at the black populace, but at all Americans.

And so it goes...
 
They are Americans too no matter what skin colour they have...why deny them that right if they qualify, then they should have the right the whites and other cultures intermingled here in this country who are also citizens should have. My opinion and also I hope the opinion of many Americans too.
 
The history of gun control in North America is the history of violent White supremacism.

A few years ago, I was in a Lakewood, Ohio McDonalds. An elderly cleaner there began berating me for my NRA ball cap, declaring that the NRA should be "banned". I replied that the last time organizations started getting banned, we somehow misplaced 6,000,000 Jews. His response? He "wasn't so sure that was such a bad thing".

Scratch an anti-gunner, find a Klansman... or a Nazi.
 
I believe, of course that means it is my opinion, that every person who is anti gun operates on the idea that they, due to their self appointed superiority, are qualified... perhaps even destined... to control the behavior of other.. lesser.. people who do not meet their standards of what is "responsible", "appropriate", and "acceptable". These people demand that other folks do things "MY WAY!"... the very same thing every tyrant does.

Sadly this is often seen on this very website when supposed supporters of the right to bear arms start telling other folks how, when, where, why, and who... SHOULD NOT carry a gun.
 
I can't help but take notice of the fact that Ann Coulter is supporting Mitt Romney to the point of using her cutting sarcasm to ridicule anyone who doesn't, and Romney is the absolute worst choice Republicans could ever make if all we're considering is 2nd Amendment issues, yet we're supposed to listen to Coulter on 2nd Amendment issues? Of course she's right, gun control is without question an outgrowth of racism in America, but so is abortion, and not-so-coincidentally, Mitt Romney is the absolute worst choice for pro-lifers too. So in short, the biggest supporter of both gun control and abortion-on-demand that the Republicans have ever fielded as "the only one who can win against" whatever incumbent, has his most vocal, cutting, sarcastic and ridiculing mouthpiece trying to educate Americans on the terrible racist history of gun control, and she claims to be solidly pro-life as well. What does it say about people who claim firm stands on a given issue, but who support candidates whose track-records are completely counter to those stands? It says to me that they have no core values, and are not credible in being a teacher of either history or how best to address the problems that racism cause for society today.

I'm not knocking MilShooter for the OP, or for raising the topic of racism and gun control. I just prefer sources I can trust for my information. With that in mind, I suggest this video to get a great, easy to listen to and understand basic grasp of the issue being discussed. It's a production of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) entitled, "No Guns for Negroes." I think it's been posted here before. Not positive about that, but I've been aware of it for at least a couple of years, and refer to JPFO fairly often for source material when I'm discussing racism and/or gun control. JPFO has a good storehouse of articles and videos on a wide variety of topics relating to gun control, including a newer video called, "No Guns for Jews" in which the meme of racial and/or religious animus being the driving force behind gun control is further documented.

One thing that racism and gun control clearly shows is that "gun control" is a complete misnomer. The fact that gun control has been so thoroughly documented as being justified throughout our history as a means to limit blacks' rights serves to confirm that "gun control" is, at its core, people control, and in America, when it is called by its true name, exposes the anti-freedom basis for its institution and enforcement.

Blues
 
If you want to control the people take away their access to protect themselves. Gun control isn't about providing a safe environment for the citizens. If that was true the communities that have the strictest gun control laws would be the safest. Facts are facts and can not be disputed. The government, with the help of the main stream media, is very good about cooking numbers to push their gun control agenda. If the government really wanted to cut down on violence they would do something about crime. I'm not talking about creating more laws to turn law abiding citizens into criminals. Criminals today are not held accountable. Responsibility breeds accountability.
 
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I'm not knocking MilShooter for the OP, or for raising the topic of racism and gun control. I just prefer sources I can trust for my information. With that in mind, I suggest this video to get a great, easy to listen to and understand basic grasp of the issue being discussed. It's a production of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) entitled, "No Guns for Negroes." I think it's been posted here before. Not positive about that, but I've been aware of it for at least a couple of years, and refer to JPFO fairly often for source material when I'm discussing racism and/or gun control. JPFO has a good storehouse of articles and videos on a wide variety of topics relating to gun control, including a newer video called, "No Guns for Jews" in which the meme of racial and/or religious animus being the driving force behind gun control is further documented.
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Blues, I think you know that I posted the link only to open a discussion as to the origins of "gun control" and the terrible fact that it is the democratic party that has oppressed minorities through our history.

I enjoy (sometimes) listening to Ann Coulter because she is so off-the-wall. Maybe she is exactly the type of attack-dog we (conservatives) need in order to open people's eyes.

I basically agree with your assessment of Romney, but at this point, I would vote for anyone who ran against Obama. Sure, Romney is much more liberal than I want him to be, but maybe people such as Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Michelle Malkin, Sean Hannity, and Laura Ingraham can nudge him in the right direction. I can only hope so. Otherwise, when the next president gets to appoint 2-3 people to the Supreme Court, we're going to well-and-truly screwed with the incumbent's selections.

I had not visited "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership", but that will be my next stop. Thanks for pointing it out for us.

MilShooter
 
Blues, I think you know that I posted the link only to open a discussion as to the origins of "gun control"

Yes, I do know that, and agree with the premise that gun control is an extension of institutionalized racism. But....

and the terrible fact that it is the democratic party that has oppressed minorities through our history.

.....I cannot agree wholeheartedly with this unequivocal conclusion. It is true that Republicans can point to certain votes by legislators in which they were the majority of "Yea" votes for important civil rights legislation, but it is just as true that Republicans sat on their hands and did nothing to repeal or improve either gun control laws or civil rights abuses when they had the White House or majorities in Congress.

I don't see a lot of shades of gray in life. When I use words like "institutionalized racism," I recognize that the whole institution carries the burden of the implications of their meaning. The only way some sub-set of that institution can relieve itself of that burden is to be as consistently unequivocal in its opposition to a given injustice as the above bolded words in your quote are. I don't see that consistency from the Republican Party, so my rants against the institution of government are rarely limited to one party or the other. So I agree that gun control is an outgrowth of institutionalized racism, but do not agree that only Democrats are responsible for it.

I enjoy (sometimes) listening to Ann Coulter because she is so off-the-wall. Maybe she is exactly the type of attack-dog we (conservatives) need in order to open people's eyes.

While I wouldn't have gone as far as referring to her as an "attack-dog" before she endorsed Romney, I generally agreed that she was a reliably conservative commentator. After that endorsement though, which came very early in the primary process, I wrote her off. My idea of an "attack-dog" is more in line with Ann Barnhardt, whom, if you haven't run across it yet, is featured in this post of mine from a few days ago.

I basically agree with your assessment of Romney, but at this point, I would vote for anyone who ran against Obama. Sure, Romney is much more liberal than I want him to be, but maybe people such as Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Michelle Malkin, Sean Hannity, and Laura Ingraham can nudge him in the right direction. I can only hope so. Otherwise, when the next president gets to appoint 2-3 people to the Supreme Court, we're going to well-and-truly screwed with the incumbent's selections.

We come from fairly significant differing perspectives, MilShooter. We are both decidedly conservative, and generally believe that the Constitution means the same things, but we part ways when it comes to what can be done about the usurpations it has suffered. Just going by the above, you consider gentle, verbal "nudges" to be adequate to counter and/or reverse those usurpations. I do not. I don't believe it matters a wit anymore which party is in the White House, or who sits on the Supreme Court. We are so far gone that we are down to one Supreme Court Justice deciding what our constitutionally-protected liberties are, and what government is supposedly constitutionally authorized to do in complete contravention to what you and I both understand as the Founders' original intent. I do not believe there is any coming back from the untenable circumstance we find ourselves in now, certainly not with "nudges" from entertainers and talk-show hosts, all of whom of the ones you mentioned, I enjoy listening to, but whom I don't believe will have one thing to do with whether or not our country survives as the constitutional, representative republic it was constructed as. That republic is already dead. We're simply quibbling over what will replace it. I will never support replacing it with anything but the original blueprint, and there are literally global forces working against that, while comparatively-speaking, only a handful of unapologetic, uncompromising strict-constructionists like me willing to take a firm stand for it. Having come to the conclusion that the republic is dead, and further that there aren't enough committed Patriots to revive it, I am resigned to the reality that it doesn't matter who "wins" any elections anymore. America will be a "winner" if Romney defeats Obama in the same way that Charlie Sheen is a "winner." The word has no meaning in American political parlance anymore, except to crack-addled morons hallucinating that their very inebriation makes them "winners." Like I said, there aren't a lot of shades of gray in my life.

Blues
 
I can't help but take notice of the fact that Ann Coulter is supporting Mitt Romney to the point of using her cutting sarcasm to ridicule anyone who doesn't, and Romney is the absolute worst choice Republicans could ever make if all we're considering is 2nd Amendment issues, yet we're supposed to listen to Coulter on 2nd Amendment issues? Of course she's right, gun control is without question an outgrowth of racism in America, but so is abortion, and not-so-coincidentally, Mitt Romney is the absolute worst choice for pro-lifers too. So in short, the biggest supporter of both gun control and abortion-on-demand that the Republicans have ever fielded as "the only one who can win against" whatever incumbent, has his most vocal, cutting, sarcastic and ridiculing mouthpiece trying to educate Americans on the terrible racist history of gun control, and she claims to be solidly pro-life as well. What does it say about people who claim firm stands on a given issue, but who support candidates whose track-records are completely counter to those stands? It says to me that they have no core values, and are not credible in being a teacher of either history or how best to address the problems that racism cause for society today.

I'm not knocking MilShooter for the OP, or for raising the topic of racism and gun control. I just prefer sources I can trust for my information. With that in mind, I suggest this video to get a great, easy to listen to and understand basic grasp of the issue being discussed. It's a production of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) entitled, "No Guns for Negroes." I think it's been posted here before. Not positive about that, but I've been aware of it for at least a couple of years, and refer to JPFO fairly often for source material when I'm discussing racism and/or gun control. JPFO has a good storehouse of articles and videos on a wide variety of topics relating to gun control, including a newer video called, "No Guns for Jews" in which the meme of racial and/or religious animus being the driving force behind gun control is further documented.

One thing that racism and gun control clearly shows is that "gun control" is a complete misnomer. The fact that gun control has been so thoroughly documented as being justified throughout our history as a means to limit blacks' rights serves to confirm that "gun control" is, at its core, people control, and in America, when it is called by its true name, exposes the anti-freedom basis for its institution and enforcement.

Blues
I agree with you on principal, however with the 2 party system we have, any 3rd party candidate who garners a significant numbers of votes, pulls those votes from the "other party candidate" usually guaranteeing the reelection of the incumbent officeholder. I'm sick and tired of not seeing politicians I can get behind enthusiastically. But, as we all know, when you get to the voting box, you must always vote for the lesser of two weevils.
 
I agree with you on principal, however with the 2 party system we have, any 3rd party candidate who garners a significant numbers of votes, pulls those votes from the "other party candidate" usually guaranteeing the reelection of the incumbent officeholder. I'm sick and tired of not seeing politicians I can get behind enthusiastically. But, as we all know, when you get to the voting box, you must always vote for the lesser of two weevils.

I said nothing about voting 3rd party, fudo, and am not going to. The only thing you say here that I disagree with is that I "must" vote for the lesser of two evils. I literally *must not* vote if my only choice is to vote for literal evil, which I believe wholeheartedly is my only choice this time around. I'll sit this one out.

Blues
 
Yes, I do know that, and agree with the premise that gun control is an extension of institutionalized racism. But....
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Wow. What a well-reasoned post. Thank you for taking the time and effort to respond so lucidly and without animosity. Sometimes, amid the trolling and bickering over small, inconsequential matters here, I tire of reading. I freely admit that I (mostly) agree with your assessments. But unlike you, I am ever-hopeful that we can "come back" to the "Founders' Original Intent" for the Constitution. I just refuse to quit. This nation means more to me, and obviously you, than it means to many other people. I've done lots of research and reading of the Founders' communications and letters. These were brilliant men who crafted what I consider to be the most perfect document ever written by man.

I read your post on Ann Barnhardt and followed-up by watching all of her videos on YouTube. Yes, she is an attack dog. I suspect that many on the liberal side of the field are quite frightened of her. But she doesn't get any press. So most voters will continue stumbling through their "tolerable" lives without knowing the truth. There must be a better way to deliver our message than to rely on the few "talking heads" that are dismissed by the left as intolerant hate-mongers or ignored by the masses because they just don't care. Maybe it the apathy that chafes on me most...

In my original post, I wrote, "and the terrible fact that it is the democratic party that has oppressed minorities through our history." You took issue with it because both Republicans and Democrats share the blame. And you are right. I was not clear in my intentions and wrote poorly. I meant to suggest that racial minorities largely vote democratic. And they vote that way because they do not know that the Democratic party caused a lot of their problems. I did not mean that ONLY Democrats caused the situation. Hmmm.... I still haven't written it correctly. Let me use an example: My best friend is a black man. He is very conservative. He lectures at Black churches about the truth. To hear him speak about the "gimme-gimme" attitude of his fellow backs is astonishing. He clearly points out to them that it is not the government's responsibility to grant them happiness. Instead, he lectures on the importance of them working to achieve happiness. He places the blame for the welfare state (and all subsequent entitlement payments) on Woodrow Wilson and F.D.R. among others. Then he goes on to criticize L.B.J. and the Great Society. At the end of his lecture, people are scratching their heads. They never knew anything about the Democratic party's participation in creating a dependent class of people. Without him teaching them, they think it is the Republicans and only the Republicans who are responsible for their plight. Sometimes, he loses the argument. I attended only 2 of his lectures. At the end of the second one, a lady came up to him and said (according to my memory), "None of this matters to me - the Democrats give me stuff." Does that make more sense?

You are correct in your observations in that both parties are responsible for our current mess. Their collaboration should be clear to all, but it isn't. I like only a few republicans such as Gov. Christie in NJ and Rep. Allen West in FL. They seem to be more founded in the Constitution than the others. (I should point-out that I have not done a great deal of research into either one of them, but on the surface, they seem better than most.) But people like you and me (as well as many others here) share what I think is a much deeper commitment to our Constitutional Republic and its founding documents. There are many patriots here and we're all probably on a governmental watch list by now.

Although I detest that Ted Nugent shirked his duty to serve in the armed forces, I appreciate that he had a change of heart and now holds conservative values similar to ours. I suspect that he will be (and has been) closely watched by our government. At least he gets attention, even by the mainstream media. He'll probably be arrested for sedition. Heck, we all may be rounded-up.

As to the global forces arrayed against us, I again agree with you. But again, I don't think it's over yet. Perhaps my faith is misguided. I still trust other stalwart Americans to stand-up along side me. That may be my downfall. Maybe you're right - there aren't enough true patriots left in America. But I hope you're wrong.

All in all, we see things pretty much the same. I won't admit defeat until the "Fat Lady Sings" and I know that you'll be beside me, if not in body, at least in spirit. Thanks again for your post. I appreciate your insight and intellect. But moreover, I appreciate your commitment to the values we share and covet.

MilShooter
 
BluesStringer I understand your position and support your decision to sit this one out. I don't trust politicians and especially east coast liberals. I will not sit this one out. Some times we have to loose a battle now and then to win the war. I for one want to be a part of the fix. Can't do that from the sidelines. I will again hold my nose and vote. You can call me optimistic or a fool, I may be both I don't know. At any rate I feel part of the process and have the right to complain or praise the outcome. :pleasantry:
 
I agree with you on principal, however with the 2 party system we have, any 3rd party candidate who garners a significant numbers of votes, pulls those votes from the "other party candidate" usually guaranteeing the reelection of the incumbent officeholder. I'm sick and tired of not seeing politicians I can get behind enthusiastically. But, as we all know, when you get to the voting box, you must always vote for the lesser of two weevils.

I have to look at it as voting for the best of two bad options which is definitely the way it's been for many years. This time around it looks as if one of the options is far better than the other (as in BHO).

Also, I don't always agree with Ann Coulter, but I have to give her credit for the research she does. I am over 60 and a lot of what she presented was new to me.
 
Sitting out the election is not an option. In my opinion, if you are not happy with the direction things are headed and you choose not to vote against Obama, then you are as much a part of the problem as he is. Silence is consent.

Apathy is what got us where we are.
 
But unlike you, I am ever-hopeful that we can "come back" to the "Founders' Original Intent" for the Constitution. I just refuse to quit.

I refuse to quit too. We only differ in what we consider appropriate labors towards the ends of constitutional restoration. I consider voting to be just shy of being completely meaningless anymore, especially if you're conservative. I mean, look at the choices conservatives have had for the last 25 or so years. Ross Perot, Bob Dole, John McCain and now Mitt Romney. Color me unimpressed. Within the last few weeks the Republican-controlled House voted 388 to 3 (with 42 abstentions) to authorize the POS POTUS who isn't even proven to be a freakin' citizen, the authority to prevent opposition speech towards him or anyone he designates as being protected by his simple "memorandum," with the penalty for standing on one's 1st Amendment rights possibly being a felony charge with up to 10 years in prison. Now, how one finds anything to hang their hat on in regards to finding hope that voting in presidents and Congress-critters will do a lick of good in light of such virtually unopposed usurpations is beyond my ability to comprehend.

There are three boxes that contributed to the creation of the United States under the Constitution; 1) The soap-box. 2) The ballot-box. 3) The bullet-box. I still consider all three as necessary credible threats against the usurpations of the system that it took all three to create. Most people, even highly conservative and patriotic sorts, consider only the first two legitimate forms of pressure against government anymore. But I think the first two have been made so completely impotent in today's lexicon, that #3 is now an inevitability if constitutional restoration is to be either started or completed. Not a desirable inevitability because of the woeful numbers of citizens who take their rightful place as protectors of the Constitution seriously, but an inevitability nonetheless. Whether out-and-out revolution ever actually happens is an as-yet unanswered question. As to whether or not conservatives have either the numbers or the testicular fortitude necessary to prevent the need for it is not. Obviously, they don't, or Romney and the other aforementioned faux-conservatives wouldn't be the standard bearers for what little is left of a truly conservative movement.

In any case, I haven't quit loving or being willing to fight tooth and nail for my country, I just don't think voting is the manifestation of that willingness. As far as I can tell, this is really the only difference between our positions in the context of this discussion.

There are many patriots here and we're all probably on a governmental watch list by now.

I can guarantee I am. I hold what I consider to be the honorable distinction of being quoted by the hacks at the Southern Poverty Law Center from a post on another forum that was used in part as evidence by them that the government should institute restrictions on free speech specifically on the internet. I just searched for the report so I could link to it, but couldn't find it through the morass of just-as-equally and disgustingly anti-freedom links that come up when searching anything on the SPLC site. Whatever, being someone whom the government considers dangerous to its continued unopposed domination over peoples' liberties simply on the basis of the opinions I express on a daily basis, and not on any criminal actions I have ever indulged in, is a status I wear as a badge of honor. To the extent that "we're all" on similar watch lists by now, y'all should feel the same way. Screw 'em. They don't scare me.

Although I detest that Ted Nugent shirked his duty to serve in the armed forces

Whoa! "Shirked his duty?" I served, but had I not, I would take extreme offense at such a conclusion. At one point several years ago I had occasion to research what percentage of the American male population had ever served in the military. At that time, maybe 10 or 12 years ago, while several tens of thousands more WWII vets were still alive, only 6% had served. I'd be surprised to find out that it's any higher a percentage today, and likewise surprised to find out it wasn't significantly lower now. It's hard to imagine that you consider 94% (minimum) of the male population to have "shirked their duty" by not serving. I enlisted at 17 about a year before the draft ended (unknowing of that fact at the time) so that I could have a say in where I went. The vast majority of people I served with who enlisted did so in order to avoid being sent to Nam as cannon fodder for a war that most of us didn't believe in. Had the draft not been in effect, and my number when I turned 18 wouldn't have been #8, I would've "shirked my duty" too. Even at 17 I was aware enough to realize that running to Canada or burning my draft card in protest were decisions I could not make in good conscience, so I did what I could to avoid Nam while still not avoiding what I thought would be compulsory service if I hadn't enlisted. I gamed the system more than Nugent did though. All he did was decide not to enlist, and luckily for him, he wasn't drafted. Or at least I don't think he was. For all I know, he was called and failed a physical or something. Either way, I sure don't see him or the other 94% of males who never served as failing any kind of duty. It seems one thing for vets to think of themselves as exceptional people. Though I do not consider myself as such simply by virtue of my time in service, I certainly do consider many others as such, especially those who serve(d) in combat. But it seems quite another thing to consider anyone who didn't serve as shirking a duty that cannot be found articulated anywhere in any set of laws or treatises on societal norms and expectations anywhere. Ya lost me on that one.

He'll probably be arrested for sedition.

Nope, the Secret Service interviewed him yesterday and issued a statement that they consider the matter closed.

Heck, we all may be rounded-up.

My first inclination was to agree with you here. But on second thought, I'm thinking, "Why?" Why would the government go after right-wingers who can't even organize effectively enough to prevent the virtual author of ObamaCare from being their candidate for president? Why go after the same right-wingers who are busy nominating the most pro-abortion Republican in all the land? Or the most anti-gun Republican in all the land? Or the Republican candidate who, along with his only minor challenger left for the nomination, Newt Gingrich, believes wholeheartedly in man-made global warming and all the government regulations and limits on freedom that come with that belief? Or the Republican who vocally advocated for TARP 1 and 2? Or the Republican most supportive of a "path to citizenship" for people who literally broke into our country? Why would the current leftist government go after us right-wingers as we prepare to nominate the only Republican to ever nullify an existing law by executive fiat, and order town clerks in MA to issue same-sex marriage certificates?

The demonstrable fact of the matter is that we have become such de-balled eunuchs in America that to identify one's self as a Republican is to admit to never standing for the core values that they used to exemplify. Republicans are Democrats' best friends, not because they don't recognize that Romney has so many disqualifying faults to run on their ticket, but because they are going to nominate him despite that recognition. How anyone who supports voting for Romney can claim adherence to core conservative values that are so utterly incompatible with his record is way too many shades of gray for these old eyes to see, and I see no reason why the Obammunist would order rounding up those so-called right-wingers when they're so close to destroying themselves without the leftists having to lift a finger.

In short, I think we're plenty safe for now.

As to the global forces arrayed against us, I again agree with you. But again, I don't think it's over yet. Perhaps my faith is misguided. I still trust other stalwart Americans to stand-up along side me. That may be my downfall. Maybe you're right - there aren't enough true patriots left in America. But I hope you're wrong.

I used to say that I hoped I was wrong too. But I came to the conclusion that hope won't get you change. Only change gets you change. Only refusing to elect and reelect for decades, so-called conservatives who allow and/or sit idly by while usurpations like McCain/Feingold pass, or HR 347 passes with all but three House members voting against it, or the Patriot Act not only passes, but subsequently gets renewed and "strengthened" (from a government perspective, not The People's - the absolute proof that it goes against The People's interests), when presidents can order the assassination of even the most despicable American citizen with Executive Orders and no congressional or SCOTUS involvement or oversight, only sending these kinds of "conservatives" home has a prayer of initiating the amount of change that we need for my hope to be reinvigorated. Honestly, I don't see that happening though.

All in all, we see things pretty much the same. I won't admit defeat until the "Fat Lady Sings" and I know that you'll be beside me, if not in body, at least in spirit. Thanks again for your post. I appreciate your insight and intellect. But moreover, I appreciate your commitment to the values we share and covet.

MilShooter

Oh, don't worry, I'll be beside any and all Patriots in both body and spirit should the time come to put them on the line. I would like you to describe what set of circumstances would constitute the "fat lady singing" though. Will it take the public admission by the so-called conservatives who hold the reins of power in this country that they have willingly participated in the ushering in of the New World Order? Something more? Something less? I only scratched the surface above of problems I have with them in general, or Romney specifically, but that's enough for me. The fat lady has sung. When does the curtain close on your fat lady?

Blues

ETA: I know you said you watched all the videos of Ann Barnhardt's on YouTube, but wondered if you might have missed this one. I stumbled upon it a couple of minutes after posting this post, but it shouldn't be any surprise that Ann and I are so closely aligned in our rationale for opposing Romney. If you already saw it, my apologies. If not, check it out and hear in Ann's voice the same enthusiasm and commitment to her positions as you would hear in my voice if we were just sittin' around shootin' the bull.
 
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Whoa! "Shirked his duty?" I served, but had I not, I would take extreme offense at such a conclusion. At one point several years ago I had occasion to research what percentage of the American male population had ever served in the military. At that time, maybe 10 or 12 years ago, while several tens of thousands more WWII vets were still alive, only 6% had served. I'd be surprised to find out that it's any higher a percentage today, and likewise surprised to find out it wasn't significantly lower now. It's hard to imagine that you consider 94% (minimum) of the male population to have "shirked their duty" by not serving. I enlisted at 17 about a year before the draft ended (unknowing of that fact at the time) so that I could have a say in where I went. The vast majority of people I served with who enlisted did so in order to avoid being sent to Nam as cannon fodder for a war that most of us didn't believe in. Had the draft not been in effect, and my number when I turned 18 wouldn't have been #8, I would've "shirked my duty" too. Even at 17 I was aware enough to realize that running to Canada or burning my draft card in protest were decisions I could not make in good conscience, so I did what I could to avoid Nam while still not avoiding what I thought would be compulsory service if I hadn't enlisted. I gamed the system more than Nugent did though. All he did was decide not to enlist, and luckily for him, he wasn't drafted. Or at least I don't think he was. For all I know, he was called and failed a physical or something. Either way, I sure don't see him or the other 94% of males who never served as failing any kind of duty. It seems one thing for vets to think of themselves as exceptional people. Though I do not consider myself as such simply by virtue of my time in service, I certainly do consider many others as such, especially those who serve(d) in combat. But it seems quite another thing to consider anyone who didn't serve as shirking a duty that cannot be found articulated anywhere in any set of laws or treatises on societal norms and expectations anywhere. Ya lost me on that one.

Blues, I chose to respond only to the misunderstanding about Ted Nugent. I have to digest the rest of your post later! But I wanted to make sure to tell you the "Ted Nugent" story as I know it.

First, I’m sorry for just dropping it on you like I did – I thought everyone knew about the rumors surrounding Ted Nugent’s “evasion” of the draft. Unfortunately, about 99.99% of them are false, but I think I pieced-together what really happened. I did the research because I respected his stance on the Constitution and his support of the military but I had heard terrible rumors about his draft “evasion”. So I set out to unravel the mystery. I may be completely wrong, but as near as I can figure it, this is the story:

Although there are a multitude of rumors around the Internet that Ted Nugent, 30 days before his induction physical (he was drafted), ceased to bathe or perform any personal hygiene, ate only junk foods, and a week before the physical, ceased to use a toilet (doing everything in his pants), I concluded that this was a bunch of hokey. But there are many who believe this. There are also rumors that Ted was a user of methamphetamine and came to the physical under the influence. I also do not believe it as he is probably the most sober rocker I ever saw.

Both of these rumors grew viral across the Internet because of an interview he did with “High Times” magazine in which he made those claims. I believed that his rant to “High Times” was typical Ted theatrics and he admits as much. Unfortunately, the rumors persist. You can find hundreds, perhaps thousands of articles on the Web that claim this as truth. Just search for “Ted Nugent Draft”. As far as I know, Ted did not “soil himself” and “wear diapers” and “crap in a cup on the recruiter’s desk” or any one of the hateful rumors that you can read.

But what he confirmed in a truthful interview (text below) in 2006, was that he applied-for and received a “student deferment” from the draft in 1967.

He graduated from high school in 1967 and formed his band, The Amboy Dukes. Within a few months, he signed a recording contract with Mainstream Records. They released their first album shortly after signing. So he really wasn’t attending college.

He quit the band in 1975 and signed with Epic Records, releasing his first solo album “Ted Nugent”. His second album, “Cat Scratch Fever” was released in 1977.

Ted went so far as to enroll in a college to get this deferment. The problem was that he never attended the college and continued on his non-stop rock tour, touring an average of 300 days a year between 1967 and 1973. He was really too busy for college or the military. That was the behavior that I consider to be less than honorable.


Here is the text I saved from the web article I ready many years ago:
The Independent, May 28, 2006 (British Newspaper)
Interview with Ted Nugent

"He has the rage, but he doesn't have the war record. At 18, he was called up to serve in Vietnam. "In 1977 you gave an interview to High Times (the cannabis user's journal of record) where you claimed you defecated in your clothes to avoid the draft."

Per that interview: "I got 30 days' notice of the physical," Nugent told them. "I ceased cleansing my body. Two weeks before the test I stopped eating food with nutritional value. A week before, I stopped going to the bathroom. I did it in my pants. My pants got crusted up."

"I never **** my pants to get out of the draft," says Nugent, good-naturedly.

"You also told them you took crystal meth (methamphetamine, the highly destabilising drug sometimes described as poor man's crack) before the medical - as a result of which, and I quote: 'I got this big juicy 4F.'"

"Unbelievable. Meth," he replies, in a tone of deep sarcasm. "Yes, that's my drug of choice. You've got to realise that these interviewers would arrive with glazed eyes and I would make stories up. I never did crystal meth. And I never pooped my pants."

"But you did dodge the draft." "I had a 1Y [student deferment]. I enrolled at Oakland Community College."

"You said then that you wanted 'to teach the stupid bastards in the military a lesson'. I'd have thought you'd have loved the army. Guns. Travel. Danger." "Back then, I didn't even understand what World War II was."

"So basically," - I admit that I have, unaccountably, started to speak Nugent - "you didn't want to get your Michigan ass blown off in Vietnam." Nugent’s response: "Correct. I did not want to get my ass blown off in Vietnam."

"I know you do a lot of charity work for wounded veterans. Has it occurred to you that someone else may have died in Saigon because you didn't go?"

"Absolutely.”

Nugent's name, as I am sure he's aware, appears, along with those of Cheney, Bush and many of their fellow Republicans, on a website called chickenhawks.com. It lists those who have evaded or abbreviated their own military service then, later in life, developed an appetite for war and machismo, either personally or by proxy.

"So has this made you..." "Certainly. Because I failed to serve in Vietnam, I feel an obligation now, to do everything I can to support those defending our freedom. Do I feel guilt and embarrassment? Yes."

"You missed your calling."

"I wish I'd understood how important America's fight against our enemies was. But did I go to Fallujah two years ago? Damn right I did. And was I in Afghanistan, manning a 50-calibre machine gun in a Chinook - ready to rock? Yes. Was I there for years? No. A couple of weeks. But I am not a coward."

So now you know at least my perspective on Ted Nugent. Look at the last paragraph and the words I underlined. This told me that he regretted his earlier action and has now devoted his life to God and Country.
 
BluesStringer I understand your position and support your decision to sit this one out. I don't trust politicians and especially east coast liberals. I will not sit this one out. Some times we have to loose a battle now and then to win the war. I for one want to be a part of the fix. Can't do that from the sidelines. I will again hold my nose and vote. You can call me optimistic or a fool, I may be both I don't know. At any rate I feel part of the process and have the right to complain or praise the outcome. :pleasantry:

Fuhr, I am not going to call you any names or denigrate your decision at all. We simply disagree that the act of voting even has the capacity to fix things at this dire point in our nation's history. I don't think you're a fool, and if saying you're optimistic would be taken in a pejorative sense, I'll refrain from saying that too. I just don't see Romney as someone who is going to make a difference, except that maybe he will slow the roll towards totalitarianism, but totalitarianism is what's in store for this country in any case IMO, so why should I compromise my morals and integrity to vote for a man whom I believe in my heart is immoral and lacking integrity? It's a rhetorical question, as I've already considered the possible answers and come to my conclusions. I just want everyone to understand that it's not a decision made lightly or on a whim, and I'm not really trying to get anyone to follow my lead, just articulating what I think is all.

Sitting out the election is not an option. In my opinion, if you are not happy with the direction things are headed and you choose not to vote against Obama, then you are as much a part of the problem as he is. Silence is consent.

Ummm....With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, that is BS. Voting for a man whose track record stands for everything I stand against would be consenting to those things I stand against. I believe abortion is an abomination, literally an affront to God. Am I supposed to forego my commitment to God to vote for someone who has an even more egregious track record on abortion issues than Obama? I'm comfortable with the knowledge that God understands and supports my decision to kick Romney to the curb, no matter what some anonymous poster on an internet forum thinks of that decision.

Apathy is what got us where we are.

Indeed. It seems rather incongruous to me that you would couch anything I've said here, or anywhere on this forum in fact, as being indicative of my apathy. I'm so unapathetic that I literally lose sleep over the loss of my country. I can articulate 15 or 20 valid reasons why I refuse to vote for Romney, while my guess is that you can only come up with one to vote for him; he's not Obama. You're settling for the only choice the establishment machine that is the Republican Party will give you, and you have the gall to suggest that I'm apathetic? Get real.

Blues
 
This exchanges of opinions boils down to the one strange question in mind ........How come we choose from just two people to run for president and over fifty for Miss America ?
 
Sitting out the election is not an option. In my opinion, if you are not happy with the direction things are headed and you choose not to vote against Obama, then you are as much a part of the problem as he is. Silence is consent.

Apathy is what got us where we are.

Absolutely, silence is assent, It is, de facto, a vote for the incumbent. If you don't vote, you don't get a license to b****
 

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