Ammo Shortage ?


I'll always get my ammo from independent gun stores. Patronize our Local Merchants and "Buy American"!

Although there is one fairly local merchant that has kept their prices reasonable, the others have jacked up prices on things to the point where the only reason they have stock is because people won't pay the inflated prices.

If Walmart keeps having reasonable prices on ammo, it should help stop the price gouging. There are many reasons to NOT shop at Walmart, but ammo isn't one.
 

!!

On these threads I repeatedly see people buying from Wally World. Granted, they might be a little cheaper. However, no way I'd patronize WW considering their propensity to buy most of their inventory from foreign countries! I'll always get my ammo from independent gun stores. Patronize our Local Merchants and "Buy American"!

Git Er Done!

I worked for an "American" automobile manufacturer in California for almost 30 years. I have purchased American made vehicles for 35 years. The company I worked for manufactured and sold vehicles in more than a dozen countries around the world. That means that though the trucks, RVs, and cars that I bought and drove were manufactured in Japan and Canada and Europe and Asia and South America, they were still "American" because they sported a GM logo. Those vehicles were manufactured and semi- assembled in over--seas countries, but the final assembly was here in the US where the products were sold. Is that an American vehicle? Hondas are made in the US. Chevrolet Cameros and Pontiac Firebirds are made in Canada. "Foreign" vehicles (Honda, Toyota) are made in the US. Buy American? Hah! That means nothing! Define American! Go on. I'll wait. :sarcastic:
 
I worked for an "American" automobile manufacturer in California for almost 30 years. I have purchased American made vehicles for 35 years. The company I worked for manufactured and sold vehicles in more than a dozen countries around the world. That means that though the trucks, RVs, and cars that I bought and drove were manufactured in Japan and Canada and Europe and Asia and South America, they were still "American" because they sported a GM logo. Those vehicles were manufactured and semi- assembled in over--seas countries, but the final assembly was here in the US where the products were sold. Is that an American vehicle? Hondas are made in the US. Chevrolet Cameros and Pontiac Firebirds are made in Canada. "Foreign" vehicles (Honda, Toyota) are made in the US. Buy American? Hah! That means nothing! Define American! Go on. I'll wait. :sarcastic:

Good point. I drive a Toyota truck that was made in Kentucky. And I drive a Camaro that was made in Canada. I got all of the bases covered.

Oh, And I buy ammunition at Wally World. It's priced right and the one I go to always seems to have plenty of .40 and .45 They even seem to usually have 9mm. 380 though is a different story.
 
Hungry?
Out of work?
Eat your Rice Burner...

I define American made as something where the majority of the parts were designed, engineered and manufactured in the U.S.A. and the majority of the money that is payed for one goes to Americans...

As long as we continue to allow all the stinking free trade agreements to continue, that is the best we can hope for...

The Same Stinking Free Trade Agreements that allowed G.M. now known as Government Motors to close 11 Auto Plants in the United States (including the Chevrolet & Firebird Plant In Van Nuys, California where my Camaro rolled off the line at, that I toured and still have a key chain from...) where at the time G.M. paid an average salary of 20.00 hr plus benefits; and opened up 3 plants in Canada & Mexico with virtually no regulation and an average salary of 90 cents a day and no benefits to FOREIGN WORKERS, leaving the disenfranchised American Auto Workers no choice but to find a new line of work ...
We were promised higher quality and lower prices, what we got was higher prices, lower quality and G.M. got a few hundred more V.P.'s with Corporate Jets...

Ross Perot warned us and NOBODY LISTENED...
What he predicted has come to pass verbatim...

Your American Made Honda or Toyota for instance may be assembled in America but that is about it... and most of the money paid for it goes to Japan and not Americans...
And foreign countries pay less tax on autos imported here then we do for the ones we import there...

Regardless of what it is; I go out of my way to buy American whenever possible, even if I have to pay more for it...

And I make no secret about it...

I will not send one nickle out of America IF there is anyway to avoid it...

Start looking at labels, asking questions...

Buy American, the job you save or create may be your own or one of our Soldiers coming home from protecting your rice burning candy arse...

Tell Congress to repeal all stinking free trade agreements permanently...
Seal the fricking borders and take care of our own for a change...
 
On these threads I repeatedly see people buying from Wally World. Granted, they might be a little cheaper. However, no way I'd patronize WW considering their propensity to buy most of their inventory from foreign countries! I'll always get my ammo from independent gun stores. Patronize our Local Merchants and "Buy American"!

Git Er Done!

I agree that WW does buy a lot, hell most of their goods they sell are from China but the ammo, most of it anyways as well as the rifles they sell are made in the USA. So just limit yourself to those items.
 
Good point. I drive a Toyota truck that was made in Kentucky. And I drive a Camaro that was made in Canada. I got all of the bases covered.

Oh, And I buy ammunition at Wally World. It's priced right and the one I go to always seems to have plenty of .40 and .45 They even seem to usually have 9mm. 380 though is a different story.

I actually just got lucky the day before yesterday and found some .45 in. first time I have seen any at ww for at least 6 months. they do get .40 pretty regularly now though.
 
... always seems to have plenty of .40 and .45 They even seem to usually have 9mm. 380 though is a different story.
The one in Lebanon PA just got some .380 (WWB- $37/100) for the first time in about a year. Go figure, I just bought some at a gunshow ($40/100 plus entry fee) a day earlier.
 
I define American made as something where the majority of the parts were designed, engineered and manufactured in the U.S.A. and the majority of the money that is payed for one goes to Americans...

Care to cite your sources? Got a list of companies that you would care to share with us?

What about Mexican and Canadian companies? They are American companies, too.

You also stated: "Your American Made Honda or Toyota for instance may be assembled in America but that is about it..." This is pretty much an untruth if the assembly plants have joined the UAW. Few have. That is both good and bad, imho. Good if working conditions and wages are better than than those in unionized plants, yet bad if the company slashes wages or benefits or degrades the working conditions then there is nothing the worker or the union can do for redress.

Granted, the companies might be foreign based, but the people who work for the Honda or Toyota plants in the USA are Americans. They are living, working, and playing here in the USA, spending their money here at home just as you or I might do. I don't begrudge the workers anything. They have jobs, many don't.

I, too, don't like many aspects of free trade agreements. I don't think Clinton did well by us, especially allowing truckers/big rigs into the lower California areas, tearing up the freeways without monetary compensation of licensing and taxation fees with which to fix them, and driving erratically and dangerously! We, the USA, gave a lot to other countries with those agreements, we get little back!

Wal*Mart is an "American" company. Few of their wares are "Made in the USA." Those slogans mean nothing.
 
Care to cite your sources? Got a list of companies that you would care to share with us?

What about Mexican and Canadian companies? They are American companies, too.

You also stated: "Your American Made Honda or Toyota for instance may be assembled in America but that is about it..." This is pretty much an untruth if the assembly plants have joined the UAW. Few have. That is both good and bad, imho. Good if working conditions and wages are better than than those in unionized plants, yet bad if the company slashes wages or benefits or degrades the working conditions then there is nothing the worker or the union can do for redress.

Granted, the companies might be foreign based, but the people who work for the Honda or Toyota plants in the USA are Americans. They are living, working, and playing here in the USA, spending their money here at home just as you or I might do. I don't begrudge the workers anything. They have jobs, many don't.

I, too, don't like many aspects of free trade agreements. I don't think Clinton did well by us, especially allowing truckers/big rigs into the lower California areas, tearing up the freeways without monetary compensation of licensing and taxation fees with which to fix them, and driving erratically and dangerously! We, the USA, gave a lot to other countries with those agreements, we get little back!

Wal*Mart is an "American" company. Few of their wares are "Made in the USA." Those slogans mean nothing.

I will agree to disagree with you...

Further, nothing I stated is untrue...

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, regardless of how misguided that may be...

In my view if the Company is on U.S. Soil, 100% wholly owned & operated by U.S. Citizens than its a American company.
Honda, Toyota, etc., do not fit that description...

To buy something Non-American, when American is available, is the reason why last year was the first year in U.S. history that FOREIGN MADE CARS accounted for greater than 50% of all Automobile & Truck Sales in the United States...

That's a big fricking problem if you want to keep Americans working and American dollars in America...

The same goes for Wally World, they actually try to get American made items on the shelf, and when I buy at Walmart, if it says made in U.S.A. then I buy it...

U.S. Auto workers employed by Honda, Toyota etc., make disproportionately less in wages and insurance coverage than, those employed by G.M., Ford, Dodge, etc., in the U.S.
Further, they (Foreign Based Auto manufacturers) receive a disproportionately greater number of h1b visa and other temporary worker visa's than other Auto Manufacturers such as Ford, et.al.

The American UAW along with the stinking free trade agreements that we can thank Ronald Reagan, H.W. Bush, Slick-Willie and W. Bush for are a huge reason why we now have Government Run Auto manufacturers...

And Union's like the UAW and SEIU (and its sibling ACORN) are why we now have the Socialist in Chief & Company nationalizing everything in sight; Banks, Auto Manufacturers, and Health Care Providers if we let them force ObamaCare down our throats too...

Ford has started a trend of bringing back its work into the U.S. for some time now, and has closed many plants in Mexico & Canada...
Its a start...
Maybe a contributing factor as to why Ford refused to take a bail-out...

Toyota & Honda, and most other foreign based/owned Auto manufacturers to the UAW - "We Are Not Interested"

According to the federal government, (not that I take much stock in what the fed says) a vehicle with a 75-percent or more domestic parts rating is classified as a domestic vehicle. The web-based resource site Cars.com has compiled the 'American Made Index' that lists the top ten vehicles made in the U.S. according to where their parts came from, where they were finally assembled, and even how many were sold in the U.S.

The ten vehicles and where they're assembled are:

  1. Ford F-Series - Dearborn, Mich.; Kansas City, Mo.; Louisville, Ky.; Norfolk, Va. (Except Ford F-650, F-750)
  2. Chevrolet Silverado - Fort Wayne, Ind.; Pontiac, Mich.
  3. Toyota Camry; Camry Solara - Georgetown, Ky. (Except hybrid Camry)
  4. Ford E-Series - Lorain, Ohio
  5. Chevrolet Cobalt - Lordstown, Ohio
  6. Ford Explorer - Louisville, Ky.; St. Louis, Mo.
  7. Chevrolet Malibu/Malibu Maxx - Kansas City, Kan.
  8. Ford Escape - Kansas City, Mo.
  9. Toyota Sienna - Princeton, Ind.
  10. Chevrolet TrailBlazer - Moraine, Ohio (Except now discontinued TrailBlazer EXT)
Again, what they fail to note is in the case of the toyota's listed herein is that most of the profit goes back to Japan...

Lastly, my case in point is that IF you look for made in (or predominantly made) U.S.A. products; cars or otherwise you can find them...

Hungry?
Out of Work?
Eat your Rice Burner...
 
I will agree to disagree with you...

Further, nothing I stated is untrue...

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, regardless of how misguided that may be...

In my view if the Company is on U.S. Soil, 100% wholly owned & operated by U.S. Citizens than its a American company.
Honda, Toyota, etc., do not fit that description...

To buy something Non-American, when American is available, is the reason why last year was the first year in U.S. history that FOREIGN MADE CARS accounted for greater than 50% of all Automobile & Truck Sales in the United States...

That's a big fricking problem if you want to keep Americans working and American dollars in America...

The same goes for Wally World, they actually try to get American made items on the shelf, and when I buy at Walmart, if it says made in U.S.A. then I buy it...

U.S. Auto workers employed by Honda, Toyota etc., make disproportionately less in wages and insurance coverage than, those employed by G.M., Ford, Dodge, etc., in the U.S.
Further, they receive a disproportionately greater number of h1b visa and other temporary worker visa's than other Auto Manufacturers such as Ford, et.al.

The American UAW along with the stinking free trade agreements that we can thank Ronald Reagan, H.W. Bush, Slick-Willie and W. Bush for are a huge reason why we now have Government Run Auto manufacturers...

And Union's like the UAW and SEIU (and its sibling ACORN) are why we now have the Socialist in Chief & Company nationalizing everything in sight; Banks, Auto Manufacturers, and Health Care Providers if we let them force ObamaCare down our throats too...

Ford has started a trend of bringing back its work into the U.S. for some time now, and has closed many plants in Mexico & Canada...
Its a start...

Toyota & Honda, and most other foreign based/owned Auto manufacturers to the UAW - "We Are Not Interested"

According to the federal government, (not that I take much stock in what the fed says) a vehicle with a 75-percent or more domestic parts rating is classified as a domestic vehicle. The web-based resource site Cars.com has compiled the 'American Made Index' that lists the top ten vehicles made in the U.S. according to where their parts came from, where they were finally assembled, and even how many were sold in the U.S.

The ten vehicles and where they're assembled are:

  1. Ford F-Series - Dearborn, Mich.; Kansas City, Mo.; Louisville, Ky.; Norfolk, Va. (Except Ford F-650, F-750)
  2. Chevrolet Silverado - Fort Wayne, Ind.; Pontiac, Mich.
  3. Toyota Camry; Camry Solara - Georgetown, Ky. (Except hybrid Camry)
  4. Ford E-Series - Lorain, Ohio
  5. Chevrolet Cobalt - Lordstown, Ohio
  6. Ford Explorer - Louisville, Ky.; St. Louis, Mo.
  7. Chevrolet Malibu/Malibu Maxx - Kansas City, Kan.
  8. Ford Escape - Kansas City, Mo.
  9. Toyota Sienna - Princeton, Ind.
  10. Chevrolet TrailBlazer - Moraine, Ohio (Except now discontinued TrailBlazer EXT)
Again, what they fail to note is in the case of the toyota's listed herein is that most of the profit goes back to Japan...

Lastly, my case in point is that IF you look for made in (or predominantly made) U.S.A. products; cars or otherwise you can find them...

Hungry?
Out of Work?
Eat your Rice Burner...

Yes, we are ALL entitled to our opinions. That said, we don't need a flame war. We don't need labels. They are so very inaccurate. We certainly don't need put-downs. I didn't put you down and I don't appreciate your attempts. Labels and put-down are how flame wars begin. Stick to the subject. Being disrespectful does nothing to assist the points you maintain, it merely shows opinion, sometimes ignorance.

Your reasoning is circular, therefore flawed. I'll agree to disagree, especially when it's clear that you understood exactly and absolutely NOTHING that I wrote. :no: *sigh* That's life. Oh, well. *shaking head and walking away*
 
Yes, we are ALL entitled to our opinions. That said, we don't need a flame war. We don't need labels. They are so very inaccurate. We certainly don't need put-downs. I didn't put you down and I don't appreciate your attempts. Labels and put-down are how flame wars begin. Stick to the subject. Being disrespectful does nothing to assist the points you maintain, it merely shows opinion, sometimes ignorance.

Your reasoning is circular, therefore flawed. I'll agree to disagree, especially when it's clear that you understood exactly and absolutely NOTHING that I wrote. :no: *sigh* That's life. Oh, well. *shaking head and walking away*

The only thing flawed is your fatuous attempts to somehow justify buying Foreign vs. American as being synonymous...

The only thing we agree on is to disagree...

Nuff Said...
 
I didn't really want to stray any further off topic than we already have but...

Before we start ripping free trade, let's realize that our tax structure is so much more responsible for our U.S. auto mfg. jobs going to Mexico and Canada than NAFTA. The same is true for pretty much all of our mfg. jobs that are going overseas. Let's not quell free trade, let's just truly make it free. Let's also realize how much damage the unions have done to their own industry. I'll never fault someone for buying foreign if foreign is superior in quality vs. cost. Unions continue to demand higher than market value wages and we tax the hell out of our domestic companies, then wonder why we can't compete with non-union foreign makers. Then, instead of letting them fail and learn from it, we go and bail them out. Sorry, but I just will not buy American for buying American's sake when the American option sucks.

I, too, don't like many aspects of free trade agreements. I don't think Clinton did well by us, especially allowing truckers/big rigs into the lower California areas, tearing up the freeways without monetary compensation of licensing and taxation fees with which to fix them, and driving erratically and dangerously!
I'd just like to point out that all the rules are the same for Mexican trucks, including the taxes. Each truck is taxed based on the volume of fuel burned in each state (calculated using the fleets fuel economy and the miles traveled in each state by each individual truck). So, the tax collected is directly proportional to how many miles are logged in the state, regardless of the origin of the truck. Also, while in the US, Mexican (and Canadian) drivers are subject to the same hours of service regulations as US drivers. As far as driving erratically and dangerously, please. Come over here to the northeast to see erratic drivers, most of which are American citizens. Point being, bad drivers come in all shapes and sizes. Proportionally, I doubt there are many more dangerous Mexican drivers than US drivers.
 
I didn't really want to stray any further off topic than we already have but...

Before we start ripping free trade, let's realize that our tax structure is so much more responsible for our U.S. auto mfg. jobs going to Mexico and Canada than NAFTA. The same is true for pretty much all of our mfg. jobs that are going overseas. Let's not quell free trade, let's just truly make it free. Let's also realize how much damage the unions have done to their own industry. I'll never fault someone for buying foreign if foreign is superior in quality vs. cost. Unions continue to demand higher than market value wages and we tax the hell out of our domestic companies, then wonder why we can't compete with non-union foreign makers. Then, instead of letting them fail and learn from it, we go and bail them out. Sorry, but I just will not buy American for buying American's sake when the American option sucks.

I'd just like to point out that all the rules are the same for Mexican trucks, including the taxes. Each truck is taxed based on the volume of fuel burned in each state (calculated using the fleets fuel economy and the miles traveled in each state by each individual truck). So, the tax collected is directly proportional to how many miles are logged in the state, regardless of the origin of the truck. Also, while in the US, Mexican (and Canadian) drivers are subject to the same hours of service regulations as US drivers. As far as driving erratically and dangerously, please. Come over here to the northeast to see erratic drivers, most of which are American citizens. Point being, bad drivers come in all shapes and sizes. Proportionally, I doubt there are many more dangerous Mexican drivers than US drivers.

I would think that G.M. and the others whom took advantage of the Free Trade Agreements found that paying somebody 90 cents a day and no benefits vs. $20.00 and hour plus benefits, and deregulation, c-ya to the Unions, closing 11 plants and opening 3 Foreign to replace the closed 11 U.S. to be more compelling than avoiding 21% embedded taxes before putting a price tag on a new vehicle here in the U.S....

Yes our tax structure is atrocious, Unconstitutional and we need to implement the "Fair Tax Act" Americans For Fair Taxation: Americans For Fair Taxation

But in my view ALL the Free Trade Agreements have to go away period...

The only ones whom have benefited thus far are the Foreign based companies whom pay little or no tax on what they import here vs. what we import there, and the bazillion G.M. & other Vice Presidents that hosed us...

I will continue to not put one nickle in a non-U.S. pocket IF there is an American Alternative, even if I have to pay more...
Or its of lesser quality... (they will get the riot act if it is and be forced to make it better)
Its a matter of principal with me...

Buy American, give a Soldier coming home something to come home to...

Bring Back American Pride...
 
I would think that G.M. and the others whom took advantage of the Free Trade Agreements found that paying somebody 90 cents a day and no benefits vs. $20.00 and hour plus benefits, and deregulation, c-ya to the Unions, closing 11 plants and opening 3 Foreign to replace the closed 11 U.S. to be more compelling than avoiding 21% embedded taxes before putting a price tag on a new vehicle here in the U.S....

Yes our tax structure is atrocious, Unconstitutional and we need to implement the "Fair Tax Act" Americans For Fair Taxation: Americans For Fair Taxation

But in my view ALL the Free Trade Agreements have to go away period...

The only ones whom have benefited thus far are the Foreign based companies whom pay little or no tax on what they import here vs. what we import there, and the bazillion G.M. & other Vice Presidents that hosed us...

I will continue to not put one nickle in a non-U.S. pocket IF there is an American Alternative, even if I have to pay more...
Or its of lesser quality... (they will get the riot act if it is and be forced to make it better)
Its a matter of principal with me...

Buy American, give a Soldier coming home something to come home to...

Bring Back American Pride...

+1 Bohemian I agree with everything you have said. Free trade is not Free. These "agreements" need to go away and soon. It's treason if you ask me.
 
I had a problem getting 9mm Ammo. Go on the internet and Check out Bass Pro and Cabelas. Hope this helps.
 
WTF! I've been lurking around here for a long time, good info until people imposing their will to buy american cars as if they buy everything american. :sarcastic: This is the typical rant of my neighbor who works at a Chevy. Just need to look at all the weapons, plasma tv and blu-ray, how about their seiko watch and so on - all bought from foreign countries, it's amazing they believe they haven't put anybody out of work in the good ole U.S.A. At least he drives a Chevy while promoting his mantra - it's so pathetic because when asked about everything he buys, he calls them small purchases, not like it's a big ticket item. :wacko: We're in a global economy, get used to it. I will buy the best product for my hard earned money as I'm sure most do. Nuff said.

BTW, thanks Rock919, I haven't used Cabela's or Bass Pro in a while. I'll check them out.
 
My primary carry gun is German (HK) I also own Sigs, Glock, Walther, and Beretta. I do have a couple of revolvers that are American. Colt, and Smith. My camera is Japanese. T.V. not sure but not American. I do not think there is an American t.v. anymore. Our cars are Ford and Dodge but I would bet that a lot of the parts on them came from Japan. When I have a choice between American and foreign if what I am buying the American product is comparably in quality I will try and buy American but the problem much of the time is finding what I am looking for that is American.
 
Am I the only one when hearing the statement "Global Economy" thinks Socialism, Marxism, Communism?
Obama plan ships dollars overseas ? by the billions
Kind of goes hand in hand with the rest of the U.N.'s and Obama & Company's Global Poverty & Global Gun Ban Agenda...
Link Removed

There are only TWO ECONOMY'S that matters to me; the AMERICAN ECONOMY AND MY FAMILIES...

The Stinking Free Trade Agreements only came to fruition beginning in 1981...

Ross Perot warned us when he urged voters to listen for the "giant sucking sound" of American jobs heading south to Mexico should NAFTA or other stinking Free Trade Agreements be ratified...

"US farmers & ranchers will lose out to Mexico & Canada.
NAFTA’s beneficiaries: US companies that move to Mexico.
US is becoming a nation of hamburger flippers.
Jobs lost to NAFTA are not replaced at same pay.
Mexican unions are beholden to one-party government." - Ross Perot

"NAFTA is backdoor deregulation; lowers FDA standards." - Ross Perot

"NAFTA allows prison-made Chinese textiles into US via Mexico."

How many 1968 Toyota's do you see on the road vs. 1968 Ford, Chevy's etc?

IF I can buy American, I buy American regardless of what it is...

Buy American, give a Soldier coming home, something to come home to...

Save_Your_Job.jpg


WTFU Sheeple, take back the Republic...

YouTube - NAFTA: Ross Perot and Al Gore Debate 1993

See the link to the chart for the results of trade with Mexico. The year NAFTA was ratified, America had a $1 billion trade surplus with Mexico. By 1995, America had a $16 billion trade deficit with Mexico. in 2008, America's trade deficit with Mexico was $74 billion. The facts in the chart make President Clinton, Vice President Gore and all the newspaper editors who wrote editorials supporting NAFTA look like complete idiots or worse. Ross Perot was absolutely right even though he was not effective in the debate. Again, no matter what your views are on NAFTA, the chart (link below) speaks for itself.

Also, this video is significant because it documents how NAFTA was sold to America by its elected leaders. In hindsight, some of the most ridiculous statements I heard from the debate was from Vice President Al Gore:

1) "They [GM] have started to move jobs back from Mexico to the United States."
2) "If he [Ross Perot] is right, then you give six months notice and you're out of it [NAFTA]."

Lessons learned: Any time your government tries to sell you on a free trade deal with another country that has disparate living and environmental standards, don't believe it. President Bill Clinton also made similar claims about free trade with Communist China when he signed a free trade agreement with that country in 1999. Today, the US has lost countless jobs to Communist China and suffers a staggering and unsustainable $250 billion annual trade deficit with that country.

Commentary - Losing Our Independence:
Link Removed

Chart: 20 Years of Trade With Mexico. Note how the US trade surplus with Mexico turned into large deficits soon after NAFTA was ratified in 1993.

Link Removed

Video shared here under "Fair Use Section 107" for educational and discussion purposes only.

This is part 1 of 8

This is my last post in this thread on this subject, I originally responded to a off-topic post that is taking this thread over, I will post a separate thread dedicated to debate on the stinking free trade agreements, in the politics section, I encourage others wishing to debate this issue further to do so there...
New Thread Here...
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/2nd-...you-support-oppose-free-trade-agreements.html
 
I've purchased 2 Kimbers and a S&W this year. Yay America! And I haven't had problems finding ammo for any of them really. I've paid a little more than expected but I've still been able to get it.

Went to the Gun and Knife show this past weekend and saw a good amount of ammo at higher prices than I can find elsewhere so Take from that what you can get.
 

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