American Humor


jameshd

CMFWIC
This is in response to CathyInBlue's entry:

The only thing the constitution says about religion is the First Amendment: "...shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." This does not mean that the government can't establish a religion; just that they can't make a law about it. And it appears to me that prohibiting religion displays anywhere would prohibit "...the free exercise thereof..." In other words, I can't force you to follow my religion, and you can't force me to follow no religion. By the way, disctionary.com says that devout is "devoted to divine worship or service; pious; religious: a devout Catholic." So you're defining yourself as a religious non-religious person. Makes sense.
 

jameshd

CMFWIC
I have a problem with not following the letter of the Constitution, which prohibits government from establishing any religion, which having an overtly religious display on government property does. I'm sorry if you can't understand this.

The constitution does not prevent the government from establishing a religion; just with passing a law requiring that people attend services.
 

Ecduc8r_NH

Educ8r NH
The constitution does not prevent the government from establishing a religion; just with passing a law requiring that people attend services.

Actually, the 1st Amendment does prevent the US Government from establishing a religion. Thomas Jefferson, 3rd president of the US said this:

Thomas Jefferson said:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, [the people, in the 1st Amendment,] declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

... no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

It was not just the courts, although the courts have muddied the waters significantly. In 1947 the US Supreme Court had to define religion:

US Supreme Court said:
The word 'religion' is not defined in the Constitution. We must go elsewhere, therefore, to ascertain its meaning, and nowhere more appropriately, we think, than to the history of the times in the midst of which the provision was adopted. The precise point of the inquiry is, what is the religious freedom which has been guaranteed.

They found the definition in a Virginia Amendment, written by Thomas Jefferson.

The founding fathers put the words in the Constitution:

Legal Dictionary said:
Main Entry: es·tab·lish
Function: transitive verb
1 : to institute (as a law) permanently by enactment or agreement

When the federal government creates something, such as a new department, division, committee, whatever, it is written in law. The government cannot (except Obama) create government entities without laws to back them up. Therefore, to create a national religion would mean creating through law. in other words unconstitutionally.

All of this was found at USConstitution.net.

That being said, I appreciated OldGrunt humor, and thought it was funny as hell.
 

BC1

,
AND YOU ARE A TRUE AMERICAN, IF YOU THINK THE NATIONAL ANTHEM SHOULD ONLY BE SUNG: IN ENGLISH!!
I heard the words are being changed. A small sample...

Jose can you see, by the dawn's early light.
Oh so proudly we bailed, as the riverboat started leaking.
To the country we come, with coyotes that help.
As we swim the Rio Grande, faster than Michael Phelps.

And the ATF agent swears, as he shoots in the air.
Gave proof through the night, that we shoudn't be here.

Jose does that border still call out your name.
For the land of the free... and the home... of the... lame.
 

BC1

,
Funny. I thought the elitists were the ones setting the definition for who is and who is not one of the chosen, the special, the elite. A thread predicated on who is and who is NOT a "real" America would fit that bill far, far more efficiently than anything I have said. I never claimed to be "better" than anyone else here. In fact, it was a point of taking one of the points mentioned in the original list and running with it, showing just how much of a "real" American a devout Atheist is also.

I don't put myself above anyone, but neither do I allow others to put me under themselves by threatening me with torment in their own idea of an afterlife, claiming that I'm a lesser being than them, that I must be sad, that my life must be lacking because I don't believe in their imaginary friend. Attempting to put someone down like that, especially if it is then claimed it's some form of proselytizing intended to raise them up, that is the antithesis of what a "real" American is. That is elitism.

Ahhhh, but the consitituion says they can torment you with their idea of an afterlife. just as the constitution prohibits the government from endorsing any one religion it must recognize atheism as a religion of null, subject to it's own interpretations, definitions and the infliction of it's beliefs on those who believe in a God... any God. What I'm saying is that if someone doesn't want to see a religous symbol, simply turn your head. If you don't want to hear a blessing for the drivers before a NASCAR event then go get a beer. People shouldn't push atheism and then complain that others are pushing a religion. However, no one should hold judgement on you for your beliefs. It doesn't make you a lesser person unless you allow it to.

For the atheists out there... for your own sake I hope you're right. Otherwise there will be hell to pay.

For the rest of us? Let's all exercise our first amendment right and put up a religous symbol just to aggravate atheists.
 

BC1

,
The First Amendment says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;....."

There is nothing that speaks to separation of church and state or that any display of religion cannot occur on any governmental grounds or activities. The Supreme Court has added that in their reckless changes to the Constitution.

That amendment was added in response to the English being required to belong to the Church of England. Nowhere has anyone tried to establish a state sponsored religion in the US, but the aforementioned Supreme Court has gone far in the other direction.
Very astute. Separation of church and state was a phrase coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1802. It is not a constitutional provision.

Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them written in October 1801. The Danbury Baptists were a religious minority in Connecticut, and they complained that in their state, the religious liberties they enjoyed were not seen as immutable rights, but as privileges granted by the legislature — as "favors granted." Jefferson's reply addressed their concerns using the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which led to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state."
 

BC1

,
What many people don't realize is that the very laws that govern this country, civil and criminal, are generally derived from English common law, which was generally derived from religous teachings. Read the Bible and then read your state penal code and any book on civil torts.

Thou shall not steal (Burglary, robbery, embezzelment - penal)
Thou shall not murder (Homicide - penal)
Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife (Alienation of affection - civil)
Thou shall not lie (Obstruction, libel, slander, defamation, etc. - penal & civil)
Thou shall not bear false witness (Perjury penal)

There are more than ten commandments. Each is tried daily in America's courts. Even Islam incorporates sharia law into penal codes.
 

citadel45acp

New member
Wow! Everyone on this thread has blown the op way out of context. All it says is a true American is respectful. Regardless of their own beliefs. And respect what this country was founded on. That's it!!
 

BC1

,
I wouldn't dream of it. If that's what makes you happy. It is your constitutional right. But, I'm curious; does the deity that you pray to, answer your prayers?
In a word... YES! Three heart surgeries later.

What does one pray for? To give thanks for one's life, family and children, for waking this morning, for the strength to get through another day, for the ability to support one's family, for guidance, etc. NEVER for one's self. Only for others.

For some people it's not God but nature they prey to. They awake with the wondement of life and thank the natural world for their existence and good fortune?????
 

CathyInBlue

Tool Maker
The First Amendment says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;....."

There is nothing that speaks to separation of church and state or that any display of religion cannot occur on any governmental grounds or activities.
The constitution does not prevent the government from establishing a religion; just with passing a law requiring that people attend services.
Link Removed
Ahhhh, but the consitituion says they
They? They who? If you're talking about an everyman on the street, then you are right. If you talking about government officials in the course of performing their government duties, then you are wrong. Simple as that.
can torment you with their idea of an afterlife. just as the constitution prohibits the government from endorsing any one religion it must recognize atheism as a religion of null, subject to it's own interpretations, definitions and the infliction of it's beliefs on those who believe in a God... any God. What I'm saying is that if someone doesn't want to see a religous symbol, simply turn your head.
Except that if it's on the grounds of a government building that I have to enter in order to interact with my government, I can't "just turn my head."
If you don't want to hear a blessing for the drivers before a NASCAR event then go get a beer.
Usually just hit Mute until I see the Star Spangled Banner being sung.
People shouldn't push atheism and then complain that others are pushing a religion.
Except that as you mentioned, Atheism is the "null" religion. If this were a scientific experiment, Atheism would be the null hypothesis, the state of affairs that is assumed by extant evidence and Religionism would be the hypothesis being tested. No one of fit mind is ever insulted or offended by the religious symbol they were NOT shown. If you want to live in a land where the government establishes Christianity as the official religion and puts the ten commandments or a cross on the grounds of its government buildings, go somewhere, not America, where you can establish your Theocracy. In America, that's forbidden.
 
Link Removed
Except that as you mentioned, Atheism is the "null" religion. If this were a scientific experiment, Atheism would be the null hypothesis, the state of affairs that is assumed by extant evidence and Religionism would be the hypothesis being tested. No one of fit mind is ever insulted or offended by the religious symbol they were NOT shown. If you want to live in a land where the government establishes Christianity as the official religion and puts the ten commandments or a cross on the grounds of its government buildings, go somewhere, not America, where you can establish your Theocracy. In America, that's forbidden.

Atheism is a belief, just as Christianity is a belief. You are free to exercise your belief that there is no God, so why do you deny any other religion to exercise their belief.

Atheists have fought to remove any mention of God from anywhere, not just public buildings or government property. Atheists are not required to pray or participate in any religious activity, just as I am not required to participate in any Muslim activity, for example.

I certainly do not wish to deny you the opportunity to practice Atheism anywhere you wish, that is a right given you by the Constitution. I just fail to see why you wish to deny me the same courtesy concerning my beliefs. And Atheism is a religion as much as is Christianity.

Here is one definition of religion:

A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.

and another:

A cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.

So, Atheism is a religion, not the null example you mentioned.

And your practice of your religion or faith that there is no God is being forced on me by the very government entities where you won't allow my religious beliefs to be displayed. The lack of display is the very basis of your religion, and you have prevailed.

As I said, I would never deny your right to be an Atheist.

By the way, the original post was very funny and very appropriate in many ways.
 

sFe

New member
Atheism is the lack of belief in a god. Saying it is a belief or religion is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby. You in fact are an atheist in respect to all other possible gods.
 

CathyInBlue

Tool Maker
I certainly do not wish to deny you the opportunity to practice Atheism anywhere you wish, that is a right given you by the Constitution. I just fail to see why you wish to deny me the same courtesy concerning my beliefs. And Atheism is a religion as much as is Christianity.
Who said I was denying any private person their rights to pray or make magical hand gestures in any place that they find themselves. The issue is not what the individual does and never has been. The issue is what the collective is permitted to do through an action of government.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Roy_Moore#Ten_Commandments_monument_controversy

If you want to pray on the court house steps, more power to ya. If you are called as a juror and want to pray in the jury box prior to the commencement of court business each day, mazel tov. If you want to conspicuously carry your Bible around whenever you go into any public building, go right ahead. If you are in a position of authority and want to force others to do those things, you'll soon find yourself out of power just like Judge Roy Moore.

Do you get the dichotomy at play here yet? It's not about preventing you from freely exercising your religion. It's about preventing you (plural) from forcing your religion on anyone else, in general, but most importantly with the power of government should you find yourself in possession of such reigns.

Atheism, the complete lack of any overt religious actions, on the part of government is the only "religion" permitted. Atheism is special in that way. Like the zero, only knowable by the absence of all others of its kind. Atheism is still a religion, just like zero is still a number, but just like a variable that is not permitted to take on any specific value, its value is zero. An institution forbidden to endorse any specific religion, it's religion is Atheism.

This is the only way in which religion outside of the auspices of government can flourish. If government is Muslim, it's averse to Judaism out in the community. If government is Hindu, it's averse to Christianity out in the community. If government is Christian, it's averse to Atheism out in the community. If government is Atheistic, all religions out in the community can flourish.

Roy Moore's assertion that without the Christian god there can be no morality or ethics flies in the face of millennia of civilization in places Christianity never went or never took hold.
 

Dice

New member
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

The conversation needs to be had, but funny it isn't.
 
Cathy, this will be my last post on this subject. I think enough has been said and we certainly are not going to change each others mind. Your sarcasm about "magical hand gestures" does not do you justice. I have tried to be reasonable in my discussion.
 

CathyInBlue

Tool Maker
And I have been factual in mine. And as wise men have said, everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but no one's entitled to their own facts.

And localgirl, as far as I'm concerned, this whole thread has lacked for any scrap of humour from post #1.
 

BC1

,
Link Removed

They? They who? If you're talking about an everyman on the street, then you are right. If you talking about government officials in the course of performing their government duties, then you are wrong. Simple as that.

Except that if it's on the grounds of a government building that I have to enter in order to interact with my government, I can't "just turn my head."

Usually just hit Mute until I see the Star Spangled Banner being sung.

Except that as you mentioned, Atheism is the "null" religion. If this were a scientific experiment, Atheism would be the null hypothesis, the state of affairs that is assumed by extant evidence and Religionism would be the hypothesis being tested. No one of fit mind is ever insulted or offended by the religious symbol they were NOT shown. If you want to live in a land where the government establishes Christianity as the official religion and puts the ten commandments or a cross on the grounds of its government buildings, go somewhere, not America, where you can establish your Theocracy. In America, that's forbidden.

But the ten commandments (there are many more than ten) is the basis of how you live your own life. It's the basis of everything you instill in your children... aetheist or believer. We all do it. Most atheists don't read the bible. If you haven't you should take a look at the old testament. It's simply a guide to living. It's an accounting book, a medical book, a law book, a book that teaches morals and ethics. And most imprtantly, America is founded in freedom of religion... the main reasons Piuritans left England. And it follows scientific theories on the birth of the universe in much detail, yet it was written many centuries before science knew of such things.

Many people are atheists because they don't see proof of any God. That doesn't make them bad. But let me ask you this... do you love your kids? Your parents? Your Dog? -- PROVE IT! -- You can prove you took care of them, protected them, educated them made them feel safe, gave them a future? But science can never prove you loved them. Science can't prove everything that exists in all of us. However, physicists like Steven Hawking belive that science may be on the verge of discovering God exists. I for one don't believe I'm here by accident.

The government has not established Christianity as the country's religion. Hell we can't even stop a Mosque from being built next to ground zero and that's a big problem. Regarding the government buildings I don't care if these symbols are removed if it will shut the mouths of non-believers. But atheists go way too far. A cross where a loved one died in a car accident has to be removed? A prayer before a race can't be held? "Under God" must be removed from pledge of allegiance? Code Pink protesting that God hates fags and soldiers... right at their funerals? The looney left has escaped again and is trying to impose this on everyone. If they protested at my dead son's funeral they wouldn't leave upright... whatever the cost to me!

If you're an atheist fine. But don't you dare celebrate Christmas. Do not accept one gift. Do not take Christmas day off... get to work. Do not take part in the company party, secret santa or take one bite of a holiday cookie. Keep your kids off santa's lap at the mall. And do not purchase any item on a holiday sale. Live YOUR life, not ours.

BTW, new gallup poll released today says 78% of Americans believe that God created humans in their present form or humans evolved with God's guidance. Let's put the issue to a vote and settle it once and for all.

That's my opinion. You can have the last word.
 

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