America is a Christian Nation


whodat2710

New member
Can anyone here tell me how many times God is mentioned in the Constitution?

You get bonus points if you can tell me what religion Ben Franklin was a member of?

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1. 0, but God and Our Creator had already been established when we declared our independence. I know what you are going for, but check out any US currency you might have, dating back to 1776...
2. Ben was a Puritan, which is still Christianity.
 

Farmhood

New member
Was that a response to GryHounnd? Totally non sequitur........ And no most won't.

I beg to differ! Speaking of what you believe is quite different than always speaking on what someone else believes that you Don't believe. It is really very clear and easy to see. I think GryHounnd is capable for himself...

sinful nature is always hostile to God....
 

Oldgrunt

Well-known member
Can anyone here tell me how many times God is mentioned in the Constitution?

You get bonus points if you can tell me what religion Ben Franklin was a member of?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using USA Carry mobile app

I find your question interesting and would like to comment on it, not to start a big argument, but to say that religion is mentioned three times in the Constitution. First is in Article VI, "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures...........shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation to support the Constitution; but no religious Test shall be required......" Obviously, an oath duly sworn would be considered to have been made in a religious context. Second, the First Amendment says that Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The third reference is at the signing on 17 September 1787, "Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the year of our Lord...an obvious religious reference. For the sake of argument, one can say the Founding Fathers were religious and expressed it in these few comments, or, one can take those few comments and say they were not religious and meant to omit religious references in the Constitution. Good argument, but not one that will ever be satisfactory to everyone! Dr. M. E. Bradford of the University of Dallas wrote biographical sketches on the fifty-five delegates at the Constitutional Convention, including their church membership. Three members were said to be Deists, Hugh Williamson of North Carolina, James Wilson of Pennsylvania and Benjamin Franklin of Pennsylvania. All three were raised in staunch Calvinist homes and each originally studied for the ministry. Franklin being a Deist is questionable since he called for prayer at the Convention and declared "God governs in the affairs of men." In the Deist belief, God does not intervene in the affairs of men. I enjoyed the questions and getting into the Constitution!
 

Farmhood

New member
I find your question interesting and would like to comment on it, not to start a big argument, but to say that religion is mentioned three times in the Constitution. First is in Article VI, "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures...........shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation to support the Constitution; but no religious Test shall be required......" Obviously, an oath duly sworn would be considered to have been made in a religious context. Second, the First Amendment says that Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The third reference is at the signing on 17 September 1787, "Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the year of our Lord...an obvious religious reference. For the sake of argument, one can say the Founding Fathers were religious and expressed it in these few comments, or, one can take those few comments and say they were not religious and meant to omit religious references in the Constitution. Good argument, but not one that will ever be satisfactory to everyone! Dr. M. E. Bradford of the University of Dallas wrote biographical sketches on the fifty-five delegates at the Constitutional Convention, including their church membership. Three members were said to be Deists, Hugh Williamson of North Carolina, James Wilson of Pennsylvania and Benjamin Franklin of Pennsylvania. All three were raised in staunch Calvinist homes and each originally studied for the ministry. Franklin being a Deist is questionable since he called for prayer at the Convention and declared "God governs in the affairs of men." In the Deist belief, God does not intervene in the affairs of men. I enjoyed the questions and getting into the Constitution!

Thanks OG! Inspired me to also read some in the Constitution this 24th day of November 2014th year of the Lord. I also read The Mayflower Compact. I am finding it more interesting than ever to review these insightful documents. Have a good day!

sinful nature is always hostile to God....
 

Stan45

New member
You get bonus points if you can tell me what religion Ben Franklin was a member of?

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Benjamin Franklin was identified as an Episcopalian by the Library of Congress.
A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution by M. E. Bradford was cited as the source stating he was later a Deist. (Source: Ian Dorion, "Table of the Religious Affiliations of American Founders", 1997).
 

Stan45

New member
Can anyone here tell me how many times God is mentioned in the Constitution?

Immediately after Article VII, the Constitution closes with the following words:


Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth....

Did you catch it? Their work was done “in the Year of our Lord.” The Christian world dates all of human history in terms of the birth of Christ. “B.C.” means “before Christ,” and “A.D.” is the abbreviation for the Latin words “anno Domini,” meaning “year of our Lord.” If the Framers were interested in being pluralistic, multi-cultural, and politically correct, they would have refrained from using the B.C./A.D. designation.
 

XD40scinNC

New member
Immediately after Article VII, the Constitution closes with the following words:


Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth....

Did you catch it? Their work was done “in the Year of our Lord.” The Christian world dates all of human history in terms of the birth of Christ. “B.C.” means “before Christ,” and “A.D.” is the abbreviation for the Latin words “anno Domini,” meaning “year of our Lord.” If the Framers were interested in being pluralistic, multi-cultural, and politically correct, they would have refrained from using the B.C./A.D. designation.

That only makes it clear the calendar that is being used was the Gregorian calendar which is often called the western calendar and the christian calendar, and was not a global standard as many countries used different calendars.
 

whodat2710

New member
That only makes it clear the calendar that is being used was the Gregorian calendar which is often called the western calendar and the christian calendar, and was not a global standard as many countries used different calendars.
Weak reply with no substantive content...
 

Stan45

New member
That only makes it clear the calendar that is being used was the Gregorian calendar which is often called the western calendar and the christian calendar, and was not a global standard as many countries used different calendars.

Do they now?
For all practical purposes the Gregorian calendar is what is used.
The Hebrew calendar used for religious affairs.
What Iran and Afghanistan uses does not count. For reason I will not get into.
 

GryHounnd

Banned
Regarding my question about Ben Franklin's funeral here is an excerpt from a blog I ran across, I am using this source for conenience sake, but have read it elsewhere.

May 16th, 2012
Tolerance! Benjamin Franklin’s Defense Against Arrogance!



Federalist Numbers 4 and 6 quote Madison: “If men were angels, no government would be necessary.” A nation of angels would regulate itself. Each angel would be sensitive to the preferences, talents, and capabilities of other angels, while pursuing his or her own. Each angel would be humble—willing (and even anxious) to accommodate the conflicting interests of other angels.

By most accounts, Ben Franklin was the most practical Founder. From the Revolution through the Constitutional Convention, he advocated tolerance for opinions that differed from his own. Franklin saw tolerance as essential in a diverse society, and he incorporated tolerance into the Constitution: with protections of individual freedom, a limited government with enumerated powers, and allocation of the police power to the States. Franklin created room within the Constitution for disagreement to exist among citizens in the new republic.

“Tolerant” is defined at Dictionary.com: (2) a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one’s own.

Tolerance does not require agreement with opinions that differ from one’s own. Tolerance means just the opposite—two individuals respect the opinions of the other, even though they do not agree. Tolerance can only exist where there is disagreement.

In today’s political discourse, Franklin’s concept of tolerance has gone missing. Factions, and their ambitious leaders, require agreement. Disagreement is to be vanquished, not tolerated. Disagreement is now claimed to prove intolerance, the exact opposite of Franklin’s vision. The most vile names are applied to citizens who do not agree.

One occurred during the 1787 Constitutional convention, when the rivalry between large and small states threatened to tear the convention apart. Franklin made the motion that would have a House proportioned by population and a Senate with equal votes per state. “When a broad table is to be made, and the edges of planks do not fit, the artist takes a little from both, and makes a good joint,” he said. In this instance, Franklin found a principled compromise through which each group could be tolerant of the views of the other.

The second story spans fifty years. “During his lifetime, Benjamin Franklin donated to the building fund of each and every church built in Philadelphia. And at one point, when a new hall was being built to accommodate itinerate preachers, Franklin wrote the fund-raising document and urged citizens to be tolerant enough so ‘that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service.’ And on his deathbed, he was the largest individual contributor to the building fund for Mikveh Israel, the first synagogue in Philadelphia. So when he died, twenty thousand of his fellow citizens came out to march in his funeral procession, which was led by ministers, preachers, and priests of every faith as well as the rabbi of the Jews.”

Can Franklin’s example lead us back to the Founders’ vision of a tolerant society? Franklin’s tolerant society—the republic established by the 1789 Constitution—was reluctant to use the coercive power of government to impose the opinions of one group upon another. Since the British first blockaded Boston after the Boston Tea Party, Americans have resisted the coercive power of government to impose the opinions of one group upon another, preferring instead the power of critical and independent thought.

Can those among us who prefer more government find sufficient humility to tolerate the differing opinions of others among us who prefer less government?

With malice toward none, and charity for all.
 

GryHounnd

Banned
With regards to God being specifically mentioned in the constitution, it occured exactly 1 time to denote the year. However anyone who tries to cite that as proof that we were founded as a christian nation is really stretching in my opinion. The term Anno Domini has been standard nomenclature on the Gregorian Calendar and is more of a testament to the fact that the western calendar was created by a pope who saw Christ's death as the defining moment in history than anything else.

I find it much more intriguing that our founding fathers mentioned religion 3 times in the Constitution all in a prohibitive manner. In other words they banned religious tests for those taking public offices up to and including saying "So help me God" in the oath of office. The other one is of course the first amendment and the prohibition against making any law with regards to religion. This of course has led to the doctrine of separation of church and state.

One of the things that disturbs me most is when I see states like Louisiana trying to make the Bible the "Official State Book". It bothers me because the state legislator who proposed it apparently has never read the constitution. It also bothers me because he also I am positive that hasn't actually thought through the ramifications of what he is proposing. I'm pretty sure he never thought which version of the bible The state would endorse. Would it endorse the protestant bible which was edited together arountld 1500 to make it line up with the standard Jewish torah? Would the state endorse the Catholic/Orthodox Bible which includes the older septuigent version of the jewish old testament? That particular version of the Bible contains several books that were edited out of the protestant old testament? Or would they endorse the Jefferson Bible which edited out all reference to miracles? Or would the endorse the book of mormon?

These are questions that I am sure most chrisitian fundamentalists rarely think about or are prepared to answer when they assert we are a christian nation. Nor are they prepared to answer the question of which version of christianity is the correct one. In their hearts they probably would say their denomination is the correct one.

Of course its not like other parts of the world are fighting over which version of their religion is the correct interpretation. I mean come on, the ISIS version of islam is the only correct one. Its not like christians have ever killed each other over the same argument.
 

Oldgrunt

Well-known member
As I said in my last post (Nr. 1123), "For the sake of argument, one can say the Founding Fathers were religious and expressed it in these few comments, or, one can take those few comments and say they were not religious and meant to omit religious references in the
Constitution." That is exactly what has happened but, all in all, the original question has caused a lot of people to read!
 

GryHounnd

Banned
Old Grunt,

For the most part I would agree with u. Just thought I'd put in my $.02

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XD40scinNC

New member
Can anyone here tell me how many times God is mentioned in the Constitution?

You get bonus points if you can tell me what religion Ben Franklin was a member of?

Franklin quotes on religion:
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting [puritan]way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns of several points, as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. [Robert Boyle (1627-1691) was a British physicist who endowed the Boyle Lectures for defense of Christianity.]It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist"

"How many observe Christ's birthday! How few, his precepts! O! 'tis easier to keep holidays than commandments."

"Revealed religion has no weight with me."

"Indeed, when religious people quarrel about religion, or hungry people quarrel about victuals, it looks as if they had not much of either among them."

Or said about him;
"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" [Priestley's Autobiography, p. 60, on Benjamin Franklin]
 

Debray

New member
Communist keep trying but it's still a Christian Nation

Franklin quotes on religion:
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting [puritan]way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns of several points, as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. [Robert Boyle (1627-1691) was a British physicist who endowed the Boyle Lectures for defense of Christianity.]It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist"

It was asked how many times God was mentioned in the Constitution and what was Ben Franklin's religious belief.

Let’s start here:

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776


The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. (This is not a guarantee it is just the opportunity, individual effort is required)

Then we will end it here:

Where Anyone including Obama or any of his non-Christian Communist friends are prohibited from allowing the free exercise of our faith whether it be paying for their abortions or placing a cross in a public location where the majority of Americans agree it should be. Because we are a Christian Nation Americans use the Bible for all oaths in Court or in the oath to protect the Constitution of the United State by all State and Federal Government Offices. The reason many Court Houses display the ten commandment is because the 10 Commandments were used to establish American laws, because America is and always has been a Christian Nation.

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, 12/15/1791.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

And by the way a for Ben Franklin's view on religion:

Ezra Stiles (1727–1795), the Calvinist president of Yale College, was curious about Benjamin Franklin (1706–1790) and his faith.
In 1790, he asked the nation's senior statesman if he would commit his religious beliefs to paper.
Franklin agreed. He was nearing the end of his life - he died six weeks later - and possibly believed this was as good a time as any to summarize the religious creed by which he lived.
"Here is my Creed," Franklin wrote to Stiles. "I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable Service we render to him, is doing Good to his other Children. That the Soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its Conduct in this ... As for Jesus of Nazareth ... I think the system of Morals and Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw ... but I have ... some Doubts to his Divinity; though' it is a Question I do not dogmatism upon, having never studied it, and think it is needless to busy myself with it now, where I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble."
The narrative was classic Franklin, witty and to the point. Religion was worthless unless it promoted virtuous behavior.
Jesus was the greatest moral teacher who ever lived, but he was not God.​
 

whodat2710

New member
It was asked how many times God was mentioned in the Constitution and what was Ben Franklin's religious belief.

Let’s start here:

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776


The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
...

Debray, please pay attention or you look like a dork. You have just answered a question about the Constitution with quotes from the Declaration of Independence. Your other part about what he said to or wrote for Ezra Stiles would be pertinent, if you added a link so we could trust that source. I have never seen that before, hence I don't necessarily believe it just because you put dates and quotation marks there.
 

indyyy

New member
Well, I would say that Christianity is the predominant religion in America, but as far as the nation goes it's supposed to be one where all faiths, races, etc. are welcome. Just because the founding fathers said or wrote God doesn't necessarily mean "Christian" as people of All faiths believe in the "One True God". Hinduism is a fun one to look at because they have a hundred or so 'gods' but they're all manifestations of the One True God.

The reason many Court Houses display the ten commandment is because the 10 Commandments were used to establish American laws, because America is and always has been a Christian Nation.

And I would point out here that The ten commandments are from the Old Testament - which would make us more Jewish than Christian. Christianity didn't start till the New Testament and is about forgiveness for sin, whereas under the ten commandments we are still punished for our sins. In addition, Muslims believe in Moses' laws as do pretty much all other religions... even though the practitioners don't always do a very good job of keeping them.
 

GryHounnd

Banned
Well, I would say that Christianity is the predominant religion in America, but as far as the nation goes it's supposed to be one where all faiths, races, etc. are welcome. Just because the founding fathers said or wrote God doesn't necessarily mean "Christian" as people of All faiths believe in the "One True God". Hinduism is a fun one to look at because they have a hundred or so 'gods' but they're all manifestations of the One True God.



And I would point out here that The ten commandments are from the Old Testament - which would make us more Jewish than Christian. Christianity didn't start till the New Testament and is about forgiveness for sin, whereas under the ten commandments we are still punished for our sins. In addition, Muslims believe in Moses' laws as do pretty much all other religions... even though the practitioners don't always do a very good job of keeping them.

I find it interesting that Christian Fundamentalists insist on putting the 10 commandments in government buildings, but they usually specify the first set God Had Moses destroy. The original Moses destroyed were in
EX 20:1-17 are as follows, this is the one most people know.

And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”



Their replacements, which no one seems to talk about are found in Ex. 34:14 - 26

"You shall not worship any other god, for the Lord is the jealous one.

You shall not make for yourself molten gods.

You shall keep the feast of Unleavened bread.

To me belongs every first born male that opens the womb of all your livestock...

No one shall appear before me empty-handed.

For six days you may work, but on the seventh day you shall rest.

You shall keep the feast of weeks with the first of the wheat harvest: likewise with the feast of the fruit harvest at the close of the year.

You shall not offer me the blood sacrifice with leavened bread...

The choicest first fruits of your soil you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God.

You shall not boil a kid in it's mother's milk."

What gives huh? Why do they acknowledge one but not the other?
 

BC1

,
With regards to God being specifically mentioned in the constitution, it occured exactly 1 time to denote the year. However anyone who tries to cite that as proof that we were founded as a christian nation is really stretching in my opinion.
America was founded by those seeking refuge from religious persecution. It's simply historical fact.
 

nosreme

Member
America was founded by those seeking refuge from religious persecution. It's simply historical fact.

And knowing from first-hand experience that religion becomes even more malignant when it's part of government, they took pains to separate the two--to ensure that this new nation may well be full of christians (today a rapidly declining segment of American society even though you wouldn't know it from all the noise they make in an attempt to mask their accelerating irrelevancy) but that their government, and therefore the nation, would not be.
 

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