America is a Christian Nation


nosreme

Member
...Why deny the existence of Jesus when His existence has been verified through writings, official documents of the time, that He not only did exist but was crucified? Historical documents, which have been authenticated and of which copies exist, should be sufficient to satisfy the more learned skeptics...

Unfortunately a growing mountain of research is showing that what historical evidence there is, is bogus...that even the most meticulous historians and chroniclers of the time didn't even mention anybody called Jesus, or Christianity, or any resurrection, much less somebody who did the other attention-getting things ascribed to him in the Bible...that accounts of those who purportedly did mention Jesus and Christianity are elaborate (and sometimes clumsy and transparent) centuries-later forgeries. You appear to be more open to at least examining the other side's case than most in this forum. Try this for starters: Link Removed
 

BC1

,
Unfortunately a growing mountain of research is showing that what historical evidence there is, is bogus...that even the most meticulous historians and chroniclers of the time didn't even mention anybody called Jesus, or Christianity, or any resurrection, much less somebody who did the other attention-getting things ascribed to him in the Bible...that accounts of those who purportedly did mention Jesus and Christianity are elaborate (and sometimes clumsy and transparent) centuries-later forgeries. You appear to be more open to at least examining the other side's case than most in this forum. Try this for starters: Link Removed
And who were those meticulous historians who didn't write about Jesus? By name please. And what works did they write that made them the most meticulous historians? I found the complete opposite to be true when studying middle-east history. It was specifically covered.
 

Oldgrunt

Active member
OG most of the turmoil in the world today you are trying to sell as biblical prophesy is not happening because the bible says so, but because of the hate and ignorance of religions. The only sure fire thing it shows is that religion is the greatest threat to civilization that exists.

Sorry it so upsets you that your argument doesn't hold water with anyone that is not already indoctrinated into the nonsense of gods, demons, heaven, hell and all the other nonsensical trappings of your religion. Why do you expect an atheist to buy into this, when in fact you do not buy into the nonsense of other religions, and probably look at their 72 virgins and other fantasies, just like I view yours, and theirs.

After all, you have rejected thousands of gods and religions as myth, delusions, etc., only one more to go. I'm only one small step ahead of you, as I reject all of them, vs. your 99.97%

XD: I am not trying to "sell" Biblical prophecy. The Bible validates itself very nicely without any effort on my part. If it had been written as a book of fiction today, one could say that the foretold events mentioned by the author did not really happen. The problem is that it was written thousands of years ago and the events DID happen yet it is just as current as if it had been written today. It is impossible for me to deny the accuracy of the Bible because of the current condition and happenings in the world. It was foretold years ago! Whether my "argument" holds water to others or not doesn't upset me. I do enjoy repartee on many subjects. The give and take is stimulating. When it comes to the Bible, I don't feel anyone can best me in it's accuracy. I may not know all the content, verbatim, but I do know enough that my belief is unshakeable. The thing I find upsetting is how God is disrespected by you and others because, in my belief, all of you will one day stand before God and give account for yourself and your insults toward Him. That is not something I would wish on anyone. If, in the end, you are right about there being no God, you may be home free to whatever existence may await you. If, in the end, you are wrong......well, I will be truly sorry for your soul. We are definitely at an impasse so no use in arguing for either of us. Have a good day.
 

MI .45

MI .45
Unfortunately a growing mountain of research is showing that what historical evidence there is, is bogus...that even the most meticulous historians and chroniclers of the time didn't even mention anybody called Jesus, or Christianity, or any resurrection, much less somebody who did the other attention-getting things ascribed to him in the Bible...that accounts of those who purportedly did mention Jesus and Christianity are elaborate (and sometimes clumsy and transparent) centuries-later forgeries. You appear to be more open to at least examining the other side's case than most in this forum. Try this for starters: Link Removed

Councillor (we're told you're an attorney), you as well as anyone should know that a good writer, speaker, researcher, lawyer, etc. can make a convincing case for ANYTHING. I have read this book and it's atheistic biased nonsense on a variety of fronts. Why should anyone believe this authors assertions with his lack of coherent methodology and unsupported analysis? Well... they shouldn't! If one is simply looking for an atheistic set piece and an excuse to not believe in Jesus Christ then "Nailed" is the book for you.
 

nosreme

Member
And who were those meticulous historians who didn't write about Jesus? By name please. And what works did they write that made them the most meticulous historians? I found the complete opposite to be true when studying middle-east history. It was specifically covered.

Read that book (or any of a number of recent ones). It's cheap. It's also a fast read if you don't move your lips or slide your finger under each word while you read. As to what you supposedly learned in college, ancient histories once taken for granted have been the subject of intense scrutiny as to legitimacy for many years. (Same with music, and much what was accepted thirty years ago as having clearly been written by Bach or Haydn, wasn't).
 

BC1

,
Read that book (or any of a number of recent ones). It's cheap. It's also a fast read if you don't move your lips or slide your finger under each word while you read. As to what you supposedly learned in college, ancient histories once taken for granted have been the subject of intense scrutiny as to legitimacy for many years. (Same with music, and much that was accepted thirty years ago as having clearly been written by Bach or Haydn, wasn't).
I graduated from both Columbia and Brown. Two of the top colleges in America. My wife graduated from Wellesley in Boston. They're all wrong and you're right? Two Ivy-league schools (Brown & Wellesley) are teaching fiction as real history? You expect that to fly?
 

nosreme

Member
Councillor (we're told you're an attorney), you as well as anyone should know that a good writer, speaker, researcher, lawyer, etc. can make a convincing case for ANYTHING. I have read this book and it's atheistic biased nonsense on a variety of fronts. Why should anyone believe this authors assertions with his lack of coherent methodology and unsupported analysis? Well... they shouldn't! If one is simply looking for an atheistic set piece and an excuse to not believe in Jesus Christ then "Nailed" is the book for you.

I mentioned it as an accessible starting point, not as a footnote-laden, methodology-heavy tome. Nor did I mention it to change any minds. Not that any of that matters, as Conspicuous Christians will attack anything that undercuts their faith, and will do so by any means, legitimate or not, and they mastered the art of the disingenuous argument many centuries ago (after they stopped simply killing those out of step with orthodoxy). As we already know from their reaction to scientific treatises on such things as cosmology and evolution, they don't hesitate to formulate contrary arguments out of whole cloth and especially to sleazily attack methodology and credentials, integrity, and the non-religious mindset of the proponent. What's ironic about that latter is that they accept instantly, at face value, the reams of pseudoscientific crap put out by such scientifically laughable organizations as Answers in Genesis and act as if crackerjackbox PhDs from agenda-driven religious institutions are every bit as solid as those from respected institutions of higher learning; a pro-religiious orientation now becomes prima facie evidence of accuracy rather than bias--what a laugh.
 

nosreme

Member
I graduated from both Columbia and Brown. Two of the top colleges in America. My wife graduated from Wellesley in Boston. They're all wrong and you're right? Two Ivy-league schools (Brown & Wellesley) are teaching fiction as real history? You expect that to fly?

Once again you misunderstand or misrepresent what I said.

Yes, you've mentioned your academic pedigrees several times.
 

Oldgrunt

Active member
Read that book (or any of a number of recent ones). It's cheap. It's also a fast read if you don't move your lips or slide your finger under each word while you read. As to what you supposedly learned in college, ancient histories once taken for granted have been the subject of intense scrutiny as to legitimacy for many years. (Same with music, and much what was accepted thirty years ago as having clearly been written by Bach or Haydn, wasn't).

This is just one entry I found concerning Pilate communicating to Tiberius concerning Jesus and his crucifixion. I have found others essentially saying the same thing so I will stick with this version. I put more stock in two thousand year old documents than a more modern writer. Here again, we are at an impasse so we will have to believe in our own versions of history and religion.



Roger Pearse

Thoughts on Antiquity, Patristics, putting things online, freedom of speech, information access, and more



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The Letter of Pilate to Tiberius

May 11th, 2012 by Roger Pearse

One item that floats around the web is the Letter of Pilate to Tiberius. It appeared in English translation in the Ante-Nicene Fathers vol. 8 (here), and from there to all sorts of other places. Another translation appears online in The Lost Books of the Bible, 1926[1]

Here is the ANF translation:


The Letter of Pontius Pilate
Which He Wrote to the Roman Emperor, Concerning Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar the emperor, greeting.

Upon Jesus Christ, whose case I had dearly set forth to thee in my last, at length by the will of the people a bitter punishment has been inflicted, myself being in a sort unwilling and rather afraid. A man, by Hercules, so pious and strict, no age has ever had nor will have. But wonderful were the efforts of the people themselves, and the unanimity of all the scribes and chief men and elders, to crucify this ambassador of truth, notwithstanding that their own prophets, and after our manner the sibyls, warned them against it: and supernatural signs appeared while he was hanging, and, in the opinion of philosophers, threatened destruction to the whole world. His disciples are flourishing, in their work and the regulation of their lives not belying their master; yea, in his name most beneficent. Had I not been afraid of the rising of a sedition among the people, who were just on the point of breaking out, perhaps this man would still have been alive to us; although, urged more by fidelity to thy dignity than induced by my own wishes, I did not according to my strength resist that innocent blood free from the whole charge brought against it, but unjustly, through the malignity of men, should be sold and suffer, yet, as the Scriptures signify, to their own destruction. Farewell, 28th March.

So what is this item? The ANF introductory notice is very unhelpful. New Testament Apocrypha[2] does not mention it at all. Nor does a Google Books search produce much.

Fortunately I have on my shelves a copy of J. K. Elliot’s The Apocryphal New Testament[3] and this has a section on the apocryphal Pilate literature. Our item appears on p.206-8.

The work is written in renaissance Latin, probably in the 16th century.[4] The letter cannot be traced any earlier than the renaissance,[5]. It was composed in Latin[6].

Tischendorf printed the Latin text,[7] based on four witnesses, which he obtained from earlier publications:

•Chas. — the text printed by Chassanaeus in part 4 of his catalogi gloriae mundi, 1571.


•Flor. — the text printed by Florentinius in Martyrolog. vet. Hieronymi, p.113 (and reprinted by Fabricius).


•Bodl. — the text printed by Abrah. Gronovius in the preface to his edition of the works of Tacitus in 1721, from an ms. or mss. of the works of Tacitus from the Bodleian library in Oxford.


•Ven. — the text which Tischendorf himself obtained from a manuscript in Venice, Marcianus class. X. num. CXXXIV. The ms. is 16th century.


The text had previously been edited by Fabricius[8], Thilo[9], and Giles[10].

Note that the Letters of Pilate and Herod exist in a Syriac version of the 6-7th century,[11], followed by that of Walker in the ANF in 1870.[13] Another translation appeared in 1915 from A. Westcott.[14]

A Google search reveals an “epistola Pilati” is contained in the British Library ms. Cotton Titus D. xix, on f.88-89, but this is probably the epistola Pilati ad Claudium.[15]

There is also a Letter of Tiberius to Pilate, in Greek.[16] This also is a late production. I am not aware of the existence of a translation, but it takes an unfavourable view of Pilate and alludes to a journey by Mary Magdalene to Rome to accuse Pilate.
 

Stan45

New member
‘I Won’t Let You Drown’
On a recent Sunday morning in my father’s hometown of Charlotte, N.C., a group of atheists gathered for their first Sunday Assembly, what they are proudly calling a “godless congregation.” They plan to meet regularly, one of more than 60 similar Sunday Assembly groups who have organized in cities around the country as well as internationally. At the Charlotte group’s inaugural event, they played John Lennon’s song “Imagine” as their theme. The lyrics begin with the words, “Imagine there’s no heaven …”

Instead of the peace, harmony, and love that Lennon envisioned in his song, what I imagine—in fact, what I know from God’s Word—is that a world without Heaven, without God, is a nightmare filled with wickedness, torment, and eventually eternal punishment. Lennon’s dream of utopia is really a vision of Hell.

Friends, we are surrounded by people every day who are destined for eternity separated from God. They are living “separated from Christ, … having no hope and without God in the world” (Ephesians 2:12, ESV). “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9). We must sound the warning. We must reach them with the hope of Heaven, before it’s too late.

Think about how little hope there is in our world today. In Iraq, under ISIS, there is not much hope. In West Africa, living under Ebola, people are losing hope. Here in the U.S., under widespread drug and alcohol abuse, depression, chronic unemployment, violent crime, and the downward moral spiral, hope seems elusive.

The ultimate hope is to know that our sins are forgiven, that one day we will be in the presence of God for eternity. There is no greater hope regardless of what happens on earth.

When Jesus met the rich young ruler, the man asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” (Luke 18:18). That is still the question on the lips of millions of human beings. How can anyone face eternity with no hope? Jesus Christ is the only hope—no one else can take away our sins. Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).
Billy Graham: ?I Won?t Let You Drown? | Story | BGEA
 

Farmhood

New member
Read that book (or any of a number of recent ones). It's cheap. It's also a fast read if you don't move your lips or slide your finger under each word while you read. As to what you supposedly learned in college, ancient histories once taken for granted have been the subject of intense scrutiny as to legitimacy for many years. (Same with music, and much what was accepted thirty years ago as having clearly been written by Bach or Haydn, wasn't).

Why...why like that. Smart guy

sinful nature is always hostile to God....
 

Oldgrunt

Active member
I haven't read the book nosreme referenced yet but did give a cursory glance to the author. David Fitzgerald was originally a member of the Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion. From there he went on to serve on the boards of the San Francisco Atheists and San Francisco branch of the Center for Inquiry. Given that the man is an atheist, I would not have expected anything other than his dismissal of there having been a living, breathing Jesus, Son of the Ever Living God. To say that God exists would be refuting the belief of all atheists. I'm sorry but his credentials for investigating the existence of God are sorely lacking and nothing I would bet my soul on. It is amazing to me that Fitzgerald and other such pseudo-scientists are denying God while others of purely scientific bent are becoming aware that God is real and are attesting to that fact. Oh well, doesn't matter, we will all find out soon enough!
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XD40scinNC

New member
Oh well, doesn't matter, we will all find out soon enough!

Or not, for when the body fails and oxygen ceases to reach the brain, all that we are ceases to exist. All that remains is the carcass that hosted our conscinsious, and our memory by those still living.

We will probably know it's imminent, and beyond that ............ nothing. There will be no realization of anything. Granted, for many not comforting, just the reality. And I see the desperation to believe otherwise, but reason and logic say it is just wishful thinking. And no reunion with long dead loved ones.

And from a more tongue in cheek view, what about the person that dies to be reunited with the abusive parent that beat them daily, or the ex-spouse that they absolutely despise. What a wonderful reunion :rolleyes: Like the high school reunion or a family reunion, they are all there, the wheat with the chaff.
 

Farmhood

New member
what about the person that dies to be reunited with the abusive parent that beat them daily, or the ex-spouse that they absolutely despise. What a wonderful reunion :rolleyes: Like the high school reunion or a family reunion, they are all there, the wheat with the chaff.

WOW! That is different.

sinful nature is always hostile to God....
 

XD40scinNC

New member
WOW! That is different.

sinful nature is always hostile to God....

Hadn't thought of that possibility had you?

We all probably know someone that would consider reuniting with an ex-spouse or family member to be the last person they would every want to be reunited with, and this time for eternity. Unintended consequences of buying into a concept without thinking it through.
 

Farmhood

New member
Hadn't thought of that possibility had you?

We all probably know someone that would consider reuniting with an ex-spouse or family member to be the last person they would every want to be reunited with, and this time for eternity. Unintended consequences of buying into a concept without thinking it through.

No I realized you were most likely describing your horrific earlier life circumstances and now you are running from God. He loves you...and wants to be with you even damaged more than lost. I pray you would come home and recieve His blessing. XD there is no real honor or future in belittling believers.

sinful nature is always hostile to God....
 

XD40scinNC

New member
Do you spend this much time attacking Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy?
Or is it just God that you have a problem with?

Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc., do not pose the threat to freedoms and mankind's future that followers of imaginary god(s) do. So that would be a no, I am only concerned about actual threats.

(Note: before someone jumps all over that I must believe in god(s) because I said actual threats, that reference is reserved solely to the followers.)

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XD40scinNC

New member
No I realized you were most likely describing your horrific earlier life circumstances and now you are running from God. He loves you...and wants to be with you even damaged more than lost. I pray you would come home and recieve His blessing. XD there is no real honor or future in belittling believers.

sinful nature is always hostile to God....

No, it is not based on anything in my life, as you so desperately wish, but I do know several people that would fit that description. And I suspect you might also, even if you are not aware. A good friend, in his 50's still has restraining orders in force against his parents. No, there would be no joy in that reunion. Another friend ended up in a divorce where threats and restraining orders where common, and some very ugly sessions in court over virtually everything, including the kids.

Sorry you don't get to brand me as damaged because I think, and that I can see the unintended consequences of basing one's life on a child's fairy tale. There is no happily ever after.

I am not belittling followers, but I do challenge you to think, not about fairy tales and what you have been thought, but to challenge those with rational thought based on real life.

Answer this:
Do you think this woman wants to be reunited with her abuser, forever and ever and ever?
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I have also known a christian (his words) that believe the woman is subservient to the man, and that the woman above probably disobeyed and deserved it.
 

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