America is a Christian Nation


XD40scinNC

New member
Ye of little or no faith will suffer the most.
Naw, and much preferable to being scared shitless of the big boogie man in the sky for your whole life. But don't worry, it's a fairy tale, and when you are dead, you will have the same fate as the cockroach you killed in your kitchen this morning, you exist only in the memory of others.
 

Ringo

A WATCHMAN
What Happens When You Die
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The Nature of Hell
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The Meaning of Heaven
Link Removed
 

nosreme

Member
Sorry, OG, but the Bible isn't the evidence--it's a/the source of the assertions in need of supporting evidence. It can't be proof of its own contents. (That very problem is what caused me to start questioning religion when I was about 8 years old. After years of dutifully and even enthusiastically participating in "Jesus Loves Me" chants at Sunday school, I became increasingly suspicious of the notion that the source of the proclamation that "Jesus Loves Me," i.e. the Bible, could also be its own proof that what it said was true, e.g., "This I know, for the Bible tells me so.") Adult Sunday school teachers' condescending annoyance that I would "question the Bible" only accelerated the formation of a thought that maybe we kids were being told what to think and above all to never question anything in or about the Bible. Only later did I learn about brainwashing. By about 7th grade I had pretty much shed the shackles of religious indoctrination and a whole world of intellectual freedom and inquiry, as well as an appreciation for critical thinking, opened up to me and others of my age who had broken the code. Of course, that didn't keep me from going to the Albrook AFB chapel's evening youth fellowship activities for awhile to meet girls.

As to external events "validating" the Bible's "prophecies," I'm not about to get into that other than to say that the oft-cited passages are so ambiguous that they can be declared to mean whatever the declarant wants them to mean; those Biblical passages have a habit of becoming unsurprisingly accurate with benefit of hindsight. Even religious authorities are wildly mixed on the whole notion of Biblical "prophecies."
 

SR9

New member
I don't have the words to give you a debate on eschatology. I don't have great debating skills but I can produce all the evidence a rational man, who could look at it in a completely objective manner, would need. It is what some have described as a dusty old book of myths and outdated in modern society. It is the Bible. If one can be completely objective, you will see that the Bible validates itself over and over and over. It is an historical book that provides one with evidence of history of today from the beginning of history as we know it. Predictions were made by the Bible of things that would occur many years in the future and, with a little study, one can find the evidence to show the fulfillment of those things actually happened. That evidence is in history books as well as the Bible. The coming of Jesus was predicted many years in advance of His arrival and His mission in life foretold in the salvation of mankind. His death was foretold in the Old Testament and verified in the New Testament. The current travail of the world was foretold many years ago and descriptions of today's world were given with extreme accuracy. Since the Bible verifies itself over and over, I fail to see how one can deny it and reject Jesus' offering of everlasting life with Him in Heaven. If I were to be allowed only one book in this world, I would select the Bible which is not based on theories but absolute fact. I believe science and the Bible together. They are not mutually exclusive. Can't have one without the other. And one last piece of evidence I believe is what is happening right now in the Middle East. Having read the book, I feel I know the ending already and believe we ALL will be seeing Jesus in the not too distant future. I wish I had the ability to impart to you the necessary words for you to understand how I (and WE) feel and could lead you to Christ. Maybe one day.......

First of all you are not talking to a rational man. Secondly, salvation is a individual endeavor. You cannot bring a horse to water and make him drink.
Nosreme is a person filled with hate a pain, obviously. I think you would be better off to try to pick riper fruit. Green fruit is not ready for picking. He needs to forgive himself and everyone else first. Forgiving is not selective. You must forgive all, in order for God to forgive you. Nosreme doesn't seem to fit the profile yet. He may be lost forever. It's up to him to save himself.
 

Oldgrunt

Well-known member
Sorry, OG, but the Bible isn't the evidence--it's a/the source of the assertions in need of supporting evidence. It can't be proof of its own contents. (That very problem is what caused me to start questioning religion when I was about 8 years old. After years of dutifully and even enthusiastically participating in "Jesus Loves Me" chants at Sunday school, I became increasingly suspicious of the notion that the source of the proclamation that "Jesus Loves Me," i.e. the Bible, could also be its own proof that what it said was true, e.g., "This I know, for the Bible tells me so.") Adult Sunday school teachers' condescending annoyance that I would "question the Bible" only accelerated the formation of a thought that maybe we kids were being told what to think and above all to never question anything in or about the Bible. Only later did I learn about brainwashing. By about 7th grade I had pretty much shed the shackles of religious indoctrination and a whole world of intellectual freedom and inquiry, as well as an appreciation for critical thinking, opened up to me and others of my age who had broken the code. Of course, that didn't keep me from going to the Albrook AFB chapel's evening youth fellowship activities for awhile to meet girls.

As to external events "validating" the Bible's "prophecies," I'm not about to get into that other than to say that the oft-cited passages are so ambiguous that they can be declared to mean whatever the declarant wants them to mean; those Biblical passages have a habit of becoming unsurprisingly accurate with benefit of hindsight. Even religious authorities are wildly mixed on the whole notion of Biblical "prophecies."

I can understand what you are saying but, considering your exposure to God at an early age, I know you will never forget even what you may consider the most outlandish teachings of the Bible and the condescending teachers. The seed for growth is there, albeit suppressed, and may yet one day flourish. I was fortunate by having church to occupy my time when I was young and enjoyed it tremendously. When I entered the service, I, as many others, went somewhat wild and lived a life that was not pleasing to God. Thankfully, He didn't desert me and was very patient while I sewed my "wild oats." My conscience always bothered me because I knew what I was doing was wrong, not only by Biblical teachings but by our own established moral rules. I was not unique in this, everybody goes through these periods at one time or another in different ways. Eventually, I got my act together and returned to the Lord. I think I can understand your problem with the validation of Biblical prophecies considering your legal background and how even Biblical scholars are often times at odds with each other. When it comes to legalities, my mind is a tabula rasa. I can't give an argument which requires legal thought or proof, only my own interpretation of what I see as having been foretold and the ensuing results. You are an intelligent person and I believe before our time in this world is gone, you will come to the realization that the Bible is true. Still, I enjoy the repartee.
 

BluesStringer

Les Brers
First of all you are not talking to a rational man. Secondly, salvation is a individual endeavor. You cannot bring a horse to water and make him drink.
Nosreme is a person filled with hate a pain, obviously. I think you would be better off to try to pick riper fruit. Green fruit is not ready for picking. He needs to forgive himself and everyone else first. Forgiving is not selective. You must forgive all, in order for God to forgive you. Nosreme doesn't seem to fit the profile yet. He may be lost forever. It's up to him to save himself.

While I fall short of the Law in my heart too often, I have never found a scriptural justification for a Christian to judge the "ripeness" for spreading the Word of one non-believer over another. The "Law" of which I speak is:

Matthew 22:37-40 - And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

And further in Matthew:

Matthew 28:18-20 - And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Oldgrunt is among the most patient and Bible-adherent spreaders of the Word that I "know." He is following Jesus' admonitions to Witness, and he doesn't discriminate between "ripe fruit" or "green fruit," as neither did (or does) Jesus.

Whether or not he knows it, Oldgrunt has been a quiet, unassuming inspiration Brother in Christ for me, not by being quiet, but by being vocal in his love and faith in Christ while still patiently and lovingly spreading His Gospel even to people who regularly rebuke his Witness. I admire, appreciate and applaud his willingness to engage, as Christ has commanded, with people who are unreceptive to the Word.

Blues
 

Ringo

A WATCHMAN
Matthew 7:15-20 New King James Version (NKJV)
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
 

XD40scinNC

New member
What Happens When You Die

Link Removed

The Nature of Hell

Link Removed

The Meaning of Heaven

Link Removed
Not an original thought, or any thought, just the parroting of ignorance of ancient goat herders when they thought that the sun was carried across the on a chariot. Seriously can't you do better today, or do your really cling to ignorance of ancient goat herders with the pride of an grinning idiot.

You're chasing a fairy tale born in ignorance and the fear of some imaginary sky daddy. Whom by the way will send your to eternal torment if you don't obey his silly rules, because he loves you.
 

Oldgrunt

Well-known member
First of all you are not talking to a rational man. Secondly, salvation is a individual endeavor. You cannot bring a horse to water and make him drink.
Nosreme is a person filled with hate a pain, obviously. I think you would be better off to try to pick riper fruit. Green fruit is not ready for picking. He needs to forgive himself and everyone else first. Forgiving is not selective. You must forgive all, in order for God to forgive you. Nosreme doesn't seem to fit the profile yet. He may be lost forever. It's up to him to save himself.

SR9: I hesitated in responding to your post but thought I might explain a thing or two. I don't know if you know nosreme's background but I can assure he is a rational man, well educated and seasoned by years of experience. I don't know the intricacies of his life but am familiar with his professional life as a somewhat kindred spirit. He says he is a free-thinker and, as so many do, has skipped over religious dogma. Some let their education get in their way, others just go a different way. Most likely, he was a good father and husband to his family and, unknowingly or not, conducted himself in a manner consistent with the tenets of the Bible. Religion just fell by the wayside for him but not necessarily to the point of him being an irrational person. For a person to put up an argument against religion, knowledge of the subject is imperative in order to articulate perceived wrongs. I believe he knows the way to salvation as prescribed by Jesus but, for one reason or another, he has yet to accept it. I have never met the man yet I have high hopes for him and his journey to the Lord. He will one day think very seriously about his relationship with the Lord, especially in light of advancing age when one realizes that this life is nearly over and there may be some validity to religious claims. In other words, the FINAL EXAM! I try not to give up on people and am deeply concerned with how some on here mock God as the "Big Sky Daddy" and other names you couldn't pay me to use. The Bible says "...fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom...." I must be getting much more wise in my old age because I definitely fear the wrath of God! I am glad you take an interest in these discussions and hope you will continue with us and just maybe we can lead the lost to the Shepherd!
 

vernsimpson

New member
SR9: I hesitated in responding to your post but thought I might explain a thing or two. I don't know if you know nosreme's background but I can assure he is a rational man, well educated and seasoned by years of experience. I don't know the intricacies of his life but am familiar with his professional life as a somewhat kindred spirit. He says he is a free-thinker and, as so many do, has skipped over religious dogma. Some let their education get in their way, others just go a different way. Most likely, he was a good father and husband to his family and, unknowingly or not, conducted himself in a manner consistent with the tenets of the Bible. Religion just fell by the wayside for him but not necessarily to the point of him being an irrational person. For a person to put up an argument against religion, knowledge of the subject is imperative in order to articulate perceived wrongs. I believe he knows the way to salvation as prescribed by Jesus but, for one reason or another, he has yet to accept it. I have never met the man yet I have high hopes for him and his journey to the Lord. He will one day think very seriously about his relationship with the Lord, especially in light of advancing age when one realizes that this life is nearly over and there may be some validity to religious claims. In other words, the FINAL EXAM! I try not to give up on people and am deeply concerned with how some on here mock God as the "Big Sky Daddy" and other names you couldn't pay me to use. The Bible says "...fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom...." I must be getting much more wise in my old age because I definitely fear the wrath of God! I am glad you take an interest in these discussions and hope you will continue with us and just maybe we can lead the lost to the Shepherd!

You have a lot more patience with with non-believers than I do. I do feel sorry for these people but I will only tell them they are wrong and one day they will know it! Like SR9, I know I can not drag them kicking and screaming to the Alter. They have to do that themselves.
 

XD40scinNC

New member
You have a lot more patience with with non-believers than I do. I do feel sorry for these people but I will only tell them they are wrong and one day they will know it! Like SR9, I know I can not drag them kicking and screaming to the Alter. They have to do that themselves.
Good, then we have to listen to less of the nonsense of sky daddies and the other trappings of the oldest urban legend ever.

I would tell you that 'one day' (code for you kicked the bucket), you won't know you were wrong, for you will just cease to exist, just like the mosquito you swatted earlier today.

And why would you drag someone to an alter, it is just some non-functional furniture that is part of the trappings of your urban legend. Isn't it really for the 'show' and yet doesn't your bible tell you that your chats with sky daddy should be private and not paraded out in the attempt to impress others.
 

Oldgrunt

Well-known member
You have a lot more patience with with non-believers than I do. I do feel sorry for these people but I will only tell them they are wrong and one day they will know it! Like SR9, I know I can not drag them kicking and screaming to the Alter. They have to do that themselves.

Vern: We have to have patience when dealing with others. If you have noticed, it is the unbelievers who are the rudest in their comments on here and insulting to the Nth degree. If we respond to them in kind, we accomplish nothing. On the contrary, we have only incited them to be more profane. They don't seem to realize that every word they use against God will come back to haunt them at their judgement. It doesn't cost me a thing to use a little patience knowing that by doing so, I may cause someone to stop and think about what they are doing to themselves. As one person on here likes to continually talk about a loving God deliberately sending someone to hell for their sins, he hasn't stopped to think that God hasn't sentenced him to hell. He has chosen hell all by himself by not accepting Jesus as his Savior. He seems to be totally unaware that Jesus died on the cross to atone for his sins and all the others in this world. He can deny Jesus if he wants, that is because he was granted free will by God. Consequently, he dictates his own outcome, reward or punishment. The concept of salvation is such a simple thing. John 3:16 and Acts 16:31 are two passages which give us our promise of salvation but they are too profound in their simplicity for some to accept. So....to get across to some people, patience bears more fruit than does a shouting match and I just keep plugging away. God bless and let's keep plugging away!
 

BluesStringer

Les Brers
Matthew 7:15-20 New King James Version (NKJV)
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I guess this was more or less offered to counter my post right above it. If not, no biggie, but as it might relate to the discussion(s) between one patient and concerned for others' souls poster and one (or more) of the "less receptive" shall we say, members of the forum, I think the above is a bit selective and really doesn't apply here standing by itself.

Directly following those verses comes this:

I Never Knew You

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

It is Jesus' place to judge both individuals' "fruit" and our adherence to His law. It is not mine or Oldgrunt's, and if he believes he is following Jesus' law by engaging non-believers, it is no believer's place to criticize him for it. That was my only point.

The final passage of those verses ties both commands together:

Build on the Rock

[SUP]24 [/SUP]“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: [SUP]25 [/SUP]and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: [SUP]27 [/SUP]and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, [SUP]29 [/SUP]for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

If non-believers' houses be built on sand, Jesus gives them the authority to decide for themselves if such a foundation is substantial enough to build their lives upon. Oldgrunt is simply shoring up his foundation. We may believe we can perceive the "fruit" of posters on an internet forum, but having been accused by more than one member (or past members) here of bearing rotten fruit (or some other Biblical metaphor) without those members knowing a single thing about what I actually do in my life, I reject the notion that this venue is an appropriate one from which to judge "trees" that we've never seen, known, seen the contributions to people they may have made, whatever, it's not our place. Their trees have not been, "...cut down and thrown into the fire" yet, and therefore, it is not our time to "know" their fruit simply by projecting our own biases, perceived transgressions and belief onto disembodied, anonymous words on an internet forum.

I believe Matthew 7:1-14 might have some bearing on this discussion as well. When I look at the totality of Matt 7, I see it talking to me as an individual about not judging others more so than as instruction on how, or when, to judge others.

Blues
 

Oldgrunt

Well-known member
I try not to judge others and sometimes say things when I should have kept my mouth shut, but I try to do what is right. When I try to respond to someone concerning the Lord, there is one passage of scripture that comes to mind, Isaiah 55:10-11, "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater. So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth. It shall not return to me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." I feel that it is incumbent upon me to help put the word out there and the Lord will take it from there. I can't judge anyone else but, spreading the word can accomplish what I couldn't do on a personal level. I do enjoy these discussions and believe they will bear fruit, whether we know it or not. And, as a fringe benefit, "Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." James 5:20.
 

vernsimpson

New member
Vern: We have to have patience when dealing with others. If you have noticed, it is the unbelievers who are the rudest in their comments on here and insulting to the Nth degree. If we respond to them in kind, we accomplish nothing. On the contrary, we have only incited them to be more profane. They don't seem to realize that every word they use against God will come back to haunt them at their judgement. It doesn't cost me a thing to use a little patience knowing that by doing so, I may cause someone to stop and think about what they are doing to themselves. As one person on here likes to continually talk about a loving God deliberately sending someone to hell for their sins, he hasn't stopped to think that God hasn't sentenced him to hell. He has chosen hell all by himself by not accepting Jesus as his Savior. He seems to be totally unaware that Jesus died on the cross to atone for his sins and all the others in this world. He can deny Jesus if he wants, that is because he was granted free will by God. Consequently, he dictates his own outcome, reward or punishment. The concept of salvation is such a simple thing. John 3:16 and Acts 16:31 are two passages which give us our promise of salvation but they are too profound in their simplicity for some to accept. So....to get across to some people, patience bears more fruit than does a shouting match and I just keep plugging away. God bless and let's keep plugging away!

I do agree with everything you say. I have always been unable to quote chapter and verse to anyone. I do not fight or even incite them. As I said I just tell them that I believe they are wrong and walk away.

As I have said on before what my former Pastor and close personal friend said, "Everyone in Hell is a TRUE believer. It is just to late for them!" I have found that to be the best argument for me to say to them.
 

Eidolon

Alter Kocker
Before I say anything else I want to recommend https://www.blueletterbible.org/ as an excellent resource if you want to seriously study your bible. The second thing I want to say is if you really want to gain an understanding of what Scripture is saying it's a good idea to get a copy of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Of The Bible it contains every word in the KJV, the base Hebrew, Chaldee, or Greek that that word was translated from and a definition of that word in the original language.


For example Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. the word translated judge and judged if from the Greek root Krino it means to conclude, condemn or damn.

A better English translation might be Condemn not that ye be not condemned.



So what that is saying is it's not our place to pass final judgment on anyone. What it's not saying is we're not to practice any kind of discernment or if it is saying that then we have an apparent contradiction with rest of Scripture which very clearly states that we are to practice discernment and further that if a person who claims to be a fellow believer but continues in gross deliberate sin we are to disassociate ourselves with him.


1st Corinthians 5:11 But I now have written unto you not to keep company with any man who is called a brother if he is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner. With such a one you are not even to eat.


It is impossible to be obedient to that Scripture without making a judgment call on the other person's fruit. But what the Bible doesn't say is that we're supposed to call that person out on their behavior (I'm guilty) it says not to keep company with them. the only time the Bible ever tells me to call someone out is if they are preaching false doctrine (you must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be saved) or when they have sinned directly against me.


The Bible doesn't state this directly but it's my opinion that in Matthew 18 15-17 the reason Scripture tells you to take it before 2 or 3 other believers is so they can backstop you and tell you if you really don't have a case.


But going back to my main point we are supposed to exercise some discernment, we are supposed to be looking at each others fruit and making determinations on who we associate with and who we don't based on those discernments. But we're not supposed to condemn the person or hold ourselves to be somehow above them.


Case in point if you tell me you love Jesus but you never seem to find time to get in His Word or meet with His People or (more importantly) those who are not His people I may not question your Salvation but I will certainly question your priorities ( IOW I'm going to examine your fruit)
 

Oldgrunt

Well-known member
Eidolon: Thanks for the website reference. I have never heard of it before but will visit it. I have been a reader of Strong's references for years and many other books as well as different versions of the Bible. We all seem to have a working relationship with the Bible and try to impart what we can to others. As you can see, some are receptive but others, not so much. We do what we can and sincerely hope we do some good.
 

vernsimpson

New member
Before I say anything else I want to recommend https://www.blueletterbible.org/ as an excellent resource if you want to seriously study your bible. The second thing I want to say is if you really want to gain an understanding of what Scripture is saying it's a good idea to get a copy of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Of The Bible it contains every word in the KJV, the base Hebrew, Chaldee, or Greek that that word was translated from and a definition of that word in the original language.


For example Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. the word translated judge and judged if from the Greek root Krino it means to conclude, condemn or damn.

A better English translation might be Condemn not that ye be not condemned.



So what that is saying is it's not our place to pass final judgment on anyone. What it's not saying is we're not to practice any kind of discernment or if it is saying that then we have an apparent contradiction with rest of Scripture which very clearly states that we are to practice discernment and further that if a person who claims to be a fellow believer but continues in gross deliberate sin we are to disassociate ourselves with him.





It is impossible to be obedient to that Scripture without making a judgment call on the other person's fruit. But what the Bible doesn't say is that we're supposed to call that person out on their behavior (I'm guilty) it says not to keep company with them. the only time the Bible ever tells me to call someone out is if they are preaching false doctrine (you must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be saved) or when they have sinned directly against me.


The Bible doesn't state this directly but it's my opinion that in Matthew 18 15-17 the reason Scripture tells you to take it before 2 or 3 other believers is so they can backstop you and tell you if you really don't have a case.


But going back to my main point we are supposed to exercise some discernment, we are supposed to be looking at each others fruit and making determinations on who we associate with and who we don't based on those discernments. But we're not supposed to condemn the person or hold ourselves to be somehow above them.


Case in point if you tell me you love Jesus but you never seem to find time to get in His Word or meet with His People or (more importantly) those who are not His people I may not question your Salvation but I will certainly question your priorities ( IOW I'm going to examine your fruit)

I do not judge anyone. I will tell anyone when I believe they are wrong! I also will not preach to anyone. What I try to do on any subject is leave them with something to ponder later when they think about our conversation. Each person must make the decision themselves. The only thing I can do is to try to show them where the door is, they must go through it themselves. IF they go through the door GREAT but if they choose not to I will feel sad.
 

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