America is a Christian Nation


Spanish Trail

Spanish Trail
Being a "Born Again Christian" the scriptures tell me that I'm IN this world but NOT OF this world, my citizenship is of Heaven. Being IN this world I'm commanded to be "aware of the seasons" (Times we're living). Being NOT OF this world I'm commanded "not to be caught up in the cares OF this world". Therefore I don't. I have to admit though, there have been many times when I wanted to laugh and cry at the same time. Today, however, knowing the reasons of how and why Obama got re-elected and being aware of just how antichrist both the mainstream of secular society and the church have become, I find it all simply amusing and amazing at the same time. Amusing because knowing that "the wisdom of man is foolishness to God", man's governance as prophesied is ending in complete failure. Amusing also because soon, very soon, these "Fools By Choice" will have what they've always wanted, a country and a world without God. However short lived, a nightmare well deserved. Because "God sits on His throne and laughs" at man's wisdom and rebellion, I can at least agree in amusement.

Amazed because I know that Israel Is God's Prophetic Timepiece and I've been blessed to be alive in This Last Generation to witness all of God's prophesies pertaining to Israel (and the world) being fulfilled currently on a daily basis. Even more amazed, and blessed, knowing that should the Lord not tarry, I will be among the only people having lived since the beginning of Creation to never experience death, and escape (Rapture) the most terrible time in the history of this world revealed by Christ.. Matthew 24:21.."For the trouble at that time will be far more terrible than any there has ever been, from the beginning of the world to this very day. Nor will there ever be anything like it again". Without question the Signs of the End of the Age of Grace are everywhere, only the self-deceived fools by choice, are too blind to recognize them.

Luke 21:36.."Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
AMEN... MARANATHA!!​

I was raised in the "Church" - Protestant flavor, practiced it through my forties. All I can add is that your faith will serve you when it's less "corporate," i.e., less Church and mainly individual, you and God. They're denominational cults to a degree - in that you have to fit their doctrinal box to be accepted. On Judgement Day it will be you and God - your pastor and buddies' opinion will be minimal worth.
 

Atty Stu

New member
I just found this gem in the 1790 Treaty between the US and Tripoli:

In 1797 the Treaty of Tripole in Article 11 reads:

"Article 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The treaty was signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796 and at Algiers on January 3, 1797, finally receiving ratification from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by President John Adams on June 10, 1797.
 

nosreme

Member
I just found this gem in the 1790 Treaty between the US and Tripoli:

In 1797 the Treaty of Tripole in Article 11 reads:

"Article 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; ...

Of course, that's only one of many sources refuting the groupthink religious mantra that this is a "christian nation." Most here and in a couple of other gun forums will disregard those inconvenient truths just as they disregard the Establishment Clause when proclaiming that free exercise and religious speech rights trump absolutely everything.
 

MisterD

New member
Of course, that's only one of many sources refuting the groupthink religious mantra that this is a "christian nation." Most here and in a couple of other gun forums will disregard those inconvenient truths just as they disregard the Establishment Clause when proclaiming that free exercise and religious speech rights trump absolutely everything.

Actually it refutes nothing. Show me in our Constitution or BoR where it says we are founded as a Christian Nation. We are not and have never been. We however, were founded as a Nation of Christians. There is a difference and that explains why our 1st Amendment provides us with the Freedom to practice Religion as we should choose.

Look at our DoI and how our Founders proudly proclaim when talking about our Government
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to
dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to
assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which
the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the
opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel
them to the separation.
And then talk about our individual Rights.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

Then consider why when testifying in court. That we are swearing to whom, when we swear to tell the truth- Allah? Mohamed? Buddha? No it is "So Help Me GOD"!

If we were not founded as a Nation of Christians, why would these simple elements of proof exist?
 

Oldgrunt

Well-known member
MisterD: I think you summed it up in a nutshell but there are those that you will never convince. Let them think what they want but, in the end, they will all have an amazing revelation of truth. In the words of Gomer Pyle, "Surprise! Surprise!"
 

Ringo

A WATCHMAN
Then consider why when testifying in court. That we are swearing to whom, when we swear to tell the truth- Allah? Mohamed? Buddha? No it is "So Help Me GOD"!

If we were not founded as a Nation of Christians, why would these simple elements of proof exist?
As Christians, why then do we ignore scripture? James 5:12... "But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest you fall under judgment".
 

MisterD

New member
As Christians, why then do we ignore scripture? James 5:12... "But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest you fall under judgment".

I will not allow myself to be goaded into a biblically theological discussion within a Political Thread.

I have noticed a few that allowed themselves to be, that are now banned after what they had said was twisted into something that they were not really saying. But because of how others (friends of the boards owner) deceptively and relentlessly posted making what was said look worse than it was, never had a chance.

I can foresee that even this act of standing up for myself might put me in the same jeopardy, but if my 1st Amendments rights are going to be infringed upon in that manner, it will not be over a theological discussion.
 

Atty Stu

New member
I'm Jewish. There have been Jews in the United States since its foundation. The oldest U.S. synagogues date to the 1600s:

List of the oldest synagogues in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Judaism predates Christianity and by definition is not a Christian religion because we don't believe in Jesus Christ as god or even as a prophet. It is pretty hard to argue that we were not one of the religions that the drafter's of the 1st Amendment tried to protect.

The argument that references to the word "God" in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution somehow negate this baffle me. God means the Supreme Creator of the World. It encompasses Hasham, Adonyai, Jehovah, Allah or whatever name a particular religion attaches to God. It does not include prophets (Moses, Mohammed, etc). I believe in God as much as a Christian or a Muslim does. I can take the oath "under God" as easily as a Christian can.
 

Ringo

A WATCHMAN
I will not allow myself to be goaded into a biblically theological discussion within a Political Thread.

I have noticed a few that allowed themselves to be, that are now banned after what they had said was twisted into something that they were not really saying. But because of how others (friends of the boards owner) deceptively and relentlessly posted making what was said look worse than it was, never had a chance.

I can foresee that even this act of standing up for myself might put me in the same jeopardy, but if my 1st Amendments rights are going to be infringed upon in that manner, it will not be over a theological discussion.
So sorry. It wasn't my intention to "goad you" into any theological discussion, especially with such a "simple question". So sorry too that you are so confused about this thread (America is a Christian nation), you know, Christian religion, theological and all that stuff? So sorry too to have to inform you that you (what a shock) brought religion into the discussion..Quote."Then consider why when testifying in court. That we are swearing to whom, when we swear to tell the truth- Allah? Mohamed? Buddha? No it is "So Help Me GOD! If we were not founded as a Nation of Christians, why would these simple elements of proof exist?" However, in the midst of all of your excuses, tale of woe, and fear of jeopardy you did have "a chance". All you had to do was to be honest and admit that "you don't know" the answer.
 

nosreme

Member
So sorry. It wasn't my intention to "goad you" into any theological discussion, especially with such a "simple question". So sorry too that you are so confused about this thread (America is a Christian nation), you know, Christian religion, theological and all that stuff? So sorry too to have to inform you that you (what a shock) brought religion into the discussion..Quote."Then consider why when testifying in court. That we are swearing to whom, when we swear to tell the truth- Allah? Mohamed? Buddha? No it is "So Help Me GOD! If we were not founded as a Nation of Christians, why would these simple elements of proof exist?" However, in the midst of all of your excuses, tale of woe, and fear of jeopardy you did have "a chance". All you had to do was to be honest and admit that "you don't know" the answer.


There are some people who simply cannot be engaged in civil, rational discussion because they think know all that's knowable based on extrapolations from isolated, irrelevant factoids. Their maddening and disingenuous tactic is to tell the other person that the burden is on him to disprove the assertion. Sorry, but invoking "god" on money, in oaths, and in opening prayers in Congress does not prove anything other than that it happens, much less that this is a christian nation, and even less does the burden shift to someone else to disprove such a simplistic, laughable assertion.
 

MisterD

New member
I'm Jewish. There have been Jews in the United States since its foundation. The oldest U.S. synagogues date to the 1600s:

List of the oldest synagogues in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Judaism predates Christianity and by definition is not a Christian religion because we don't believe in Jesus Christ as god
or even as a prophet. It is pretty hard to argue that we were not one of the religions that the drafter's of the 1st Amendment tried to protect.

The argument that references to the word "God" in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution somehow negate this baffle me. God means the Supreme Creator of the World. It encompasses Hasham, Adonyai, Jehovah, Allah or whatever name a particular religion attaches to God. It does not include prophets (Moses, Mohammed, etc). I believe in God as much as a Christian or a Muslim does. I can take the oath "under God" as easily as a Christian can.

I do not want to get into a theological discussion, but will say that I consider myself a Christian, even though I do not believe that Christ is God like a few Religions may teach. So on that note, based upon your definition, since I believe in God and believe in Christ but not in Christ being God, then I must not be a Christian, yet I am also not Catholic or Jewish. I guess I am just a conundrum then. :D

I will admit that though the DoI refers to GOD as Natures GOD, it uses the generalization of Creator! The Constitution and the BoR on the other hand are absent any direct reference.

This does not change my view and understanding that we are a Nation of Christians or "Nation Under God". If you find offense with that, then maybe you can view what I said to be a Nation of Believers in God.
 

MisterD

New member
As Christians, why then do we ignore scripture? James 5:12... "But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest you fall under judgment".

So sorry. It wasn't my intention to "goad you" into any theological discussion, especially with such a "simple question". So sorry too that you are so confused about this thread (America is a Christian nation), you know, Christian religion, theological and all that stuff? So sorry too to have to inform you that you (what a shock) brought religion into the discussion..Quote."Then consider why when testifying in court. That we are swearing to whom, when we swear to tell the truth- Allah? Mohamed? Buddha? No it is "So Help Me GOD! If we were not founded as a Nation of Christians, why would these simple elements of proof exist?" However, in the midst of all of your excuses, tale of woe, and fear of jeopardy you did have "a chance". All you had to do was to be honest and admit that "you don't know" the answer.




So you do not understand that by quoting scripture, you are bringing a biblically theological element into the discussion?

Interesting!

You clearly are attempting to goad me into something as you are completely ignoring that the subject I was posting about referred to our Country not being founded as a Christian Nation, but as a Nation of Christians. This is evident when you present my statement about the Oath in Court, and were inferring that somehow I was either citing scripture, or bringing Theology/Religion itself into the discussion.

Most any educated individual will see that I was referring to our Nations Founding, and not discussing Theology, you were the one to quote scripture rather than our Founding Documents and seeking to get me into responding on the same level.

As you cannot accept responsibility for your own actions or words, opting alternatively to sidetrack with misinformation, deceive or disparage, you have earned a place on my ignore list.
 

nosreme

Member
Christians who feel compelled to aggressively insinuate their beliefs into every sector of society are annoyingly--and predictably--adept at changing terminology in response to authoritative rejection of and resistance to their messages and methods. For example, in response to overwhelming scientific refutation of "creationism," that term mutated into "creation science" and "scientific creationism," and resounding defeats of attempts to teach it in schools generated "teaching the controversy" (as if there ever was a controversy). I suspect the grossly misleading and comically simplistic "nation of christians" reflects a similar response to defeated attempts to label the US as a "christian nation." It will be amusing to see what comes next.
 

vernsimpson

New member
MisterD: I think you summed it up in a nutshell but there are those that you will never convince. Let them think what they want but, in the end, they will all have an amazing revelation of truth. In the words of Gomer Pyle, "Surprise! Surprise!"

I believe that this country was founded on Christian values. These values have the same meaning to the Jewish faith and to other religions. The Founders were for the most part Christians but they did not want to exclude people who believed in God or whatever other name that He is know by. The Founders had came from a government endorsed religion and did not want to be told how and what they should believe. Since most worshiped the same Supreme Being no matter by what name He was called. It was the values that each could agree on. Now we all can debate over which is the correct path to heaven but for the most part each religion in this country believes in the same core values.
 

Rowdy Yates

New member
A Christian nation?

Most of the people in this country are Christian, but that’s not in dispute or what I think Debray is driving at. The real question is, is our government Christian? The answer is no. We have a secular government. There is no mention of the word “God” in our constitution. “Creator” is used in the Declaration, but theism is not a central or even crucial theme in the document. The individual rights of the people is the central idea to the argument laid out in our Declaration. “Our Creator” is used as poetic prose not as a metaphysical argument.

I have a question for Debray and his like-minded supporters. Do you really want to live in a Theocracy? I don’t think you do, so let’s keep religion out of our government – like our founders intended.
 
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Oldgrunt

Well-known member
Rowdy: My copy of the Declaration of Independence says in the first paragraph,"..........and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the seperate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them......" You are right in thinking we do not want to live under a theocracy but we do want to live under a government and nation which is moral and has a value system which provides for our progress in an otherwise godless world. I am not asking anyone to conform to my religion nor do I intend to conform to anyone else's. I do not believe that we, as a majority, should be required to conform to a baser standard of living because another's feelings are hurt because we do not degrade ourselves and accept something we consider ungodly. Whatever another wants to do or to believe is up to them, just don't expect me to glorify or accept their ways. That being said, our government should be reflective of our society to insure that we do not become as Sodom and Gommorah. If the nation is predominantly Christian, the nation should conform to Christian beliefs yet allow other religions the freedom to practice in their own manner. If, and I say if, these other religions cause a conflict within our nation because of differing beliefs, I personally feel that the differing religion should not cause a disruption against the majority. If they can not practice without causing conflict, as with the followers of Islam, they should move to a country more in keeping with their beliefs. I believe in individual rights but not to the extent of tearing down our way of life for theirs. Guess that makes me a bigot but I have been called worse. I am a like-minded supporter of Debray but I can get along with anyone as long as they don't try to push themselves on me.
 

Debray

New member
To all my Christian Friends Merry Christmas

Link RemovedLink RemovedAnd the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.


For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.


And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.


And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,


Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Chuck
 

MisterD

New member
Rowdy: My copy of the Declaration of Independence says in the first paragraph,"..........and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the seperate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them......" < clipped > If the nation is predominantly Christian, the nation should conform to Christian beliefs yet allow other religions the freedom to practice in their own manner. < clipped > If they can not practice without causing conflict, as with the followers of Islam, they should move to a country more in keeping with their beliefs. < clipped >


I will mostly agree with you. The one comment here that I feel at best is unfair, is to equate a few Islamic extremists with the followers of Islam in general, as I have learned there is a difference. As we all have a right to our own opinions, I will respect your right to your own.

In the Spirit of the Day!

Merry Christmas to all!
 

Ringo

A WATCHMAN
I do not want to get into a theological discussion, but will say that I consider myself a Christian, even though I do not believe that Christ is God like a few Religions may teach. So on that note, based upon your definition, since I believe in God and believe in Christ but not in Christ being God, then I must not be a Christian, yet I am also not Catholic or Jewish. I guess I am just a conundrum then. :D
There is only "One" Religion that teaches/believes that Jesus is God, it's called Christianity. You say that you consider yourself a Christian and in the same breath you say that you do not believe that Jesus is God. It's no wonder that you start out by saying that you do not want to get into a "theological discussion" and I've "EARNED" a place on your Ignore List, that just makes it so much easier for you to hide such blatant ignorance than it is to discus and acquire some simple knowledge.
Conundrum
A riddle whose answer is or involves a pun or unexpected twist.
A logical postulation that evades resolution, an intricate and difficult problem.​

Conundrum is your version. God has His.. James 1:8.."A double minded man is unstable in all his ways". A Double Minded Man - A man of two souls, or of a double heart, who halts between two opinions, and is at an uncertainty what to do or say, and is undetermined what to ask for; or who is not sincere and upright in his requests, who asks for one thing, and means another, and asks amiss, and with an ill design; does not call upon God in truth, and in the sincerity of his soul; draws nigh to him with his mouth, and honours him with his lips, but his heart is far from him. Such a one is unstable in all his ways. Unstable In All His Ways - He is confused in his mind; unsettled in his designs and intentions; inconstant in his petitions; uncertain in his notions and opinion of things; and very variable in his actions, and especially in matters of religion; he is always changing, and never at a point, but at a continual uncertainty, both in a way of thinking and doing: he never continues long either in an opinion, or in a practice, but is ever shifting and moving.

Having "EARNED" a place on your ignore list and knowing that you won't be goaded into any theological discussion, I won't expect a reply, because to do so would make you "Double minded and unstable in all your ways".
 

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