almost arrested for "false documents"


SilverStone641

New member
Hey all. I had a bit of a harrowing experience last night. background, i live in texas and took my texas CHL and my Utah CHL, but for financial reasons i only sent in my Utah documentation. anyways, i get pulled over in rockwall for running a stop-sign and failing to signal intent to turn. The office requested my DL and naturally i gave him my CHL as well. he later told me he assumed it was a second drivers license and didn't pay it any attention. he came back to my car nearly 20 minutes later and asked if i had my weapon on me, i said that i did.

by now there were three cars and four officers on scene. thats when things took a turn for the worse. i had some paintball guns lying on the floor of the back seat. the secondary officer noticed the butts sticking out and immediately went into threat mode. they drew weapons and pulled me and my brothers from the car, frisked us all and sat us on the curb. they took my gun and pocket knife away at this time and put it in the squad car.

by now their sergeant had showed up on the scene, now we're looking at four cars total. they talked amongst themselves for a long time and finally an officer came over and said "look, we can't verify that your CHL is valid or even legit. theres no swipe-strip on the back. we called utah and there is no record of you(it's 0130) at this point you're looking at falsifying government documents(my brother told me later that he overheard the officers as each other if they were gonna need the cuffs. they said thats what it looks like.

they asked me exactly how i obtained the CHL and if i had ever lived in utah(they asked this at least 3 times) i told them i had taken the dallas course and that the instructor had offered the Utah class and i thought it was a good idea. he claims that utah is NOT reciprocal with texas and that the CHL isn't even valid without a Utah ID. they then went on to tell me that my utah CHL was most like a fraud and that i was taken. even though i told them that my CHL instructor stamped it with his licensing stamp and that i sent off all application documentation myself and not him. they still said that all this could be faked.

finally they told me i was free to go, but they kept my weapon, two spare mags and the Utah CHL.(which i thought was against the law if i wasn't under arrest, but i wasn't about to argue)

>basically my question is this. is a CHL that i recieved while living in texas(even though i've never held residence in utah) valid for carrying a weapon in texas? was i taken?

any help or advice would be excellent.
 

I'm not an LEO, nor an instructor, nor do I live in either Texas or Utah, but it seems to me that they confiscated your personal items unnecessarily! I do wish you luck and a speedy recovery of your property. Might you think about retaining a lawyer?
 
i thought about going the lawyer route, but i'm not in custody(i'm very happy about this!) and they weren't rude or unprofessional. Basically i just want my Sig Pro back and to get a valid CHL.

one of the officers kept telling me that he had been with the department for ten years and had never heard that a utah CHL is valid in texas. out of all 5 officers that were on scene, none of them had heard of the Utah CHL being valid. I would have thought that at least one would have!
 
Well, whether Texas recognizes a Utah CCW permit isn't a matter of speculation or opinion. It does, and that's the law.

However, even if Utah or Florida or whatever covers your state, you should still have a CCW permit from your home state.

LEOs are not always up to date on laws that apply to situations they don't deal with every day. If they stop a Texas resident and see a Utah permit but no permit from Texas, they might think you're trying to get away with something.

You may well need a lawyer to get your gun back.

The police told you that everything could have been faked? Right. The Utah Department of Safety is well known for running scams.
 
they said i'll need to come to the station to retrieve the weapon from the property room. they also said i should bring all documentation about the utah license.

does anyone have official(not wikipedia) documents or websites that i could use as confirmation that it is indeed legal for me to carry under my Utah license?

btw, i am going to get my texas license asap, i was just being negligent about the paperwork
 
they said i'll need to come to the station to retrieve the weapon from the property room. they also said i should bring all documentation about the utah license.

does anyone have official(not wikipedia) documents or websites that i could use as confirmation that it is indeed legal for me to carry under my Utah license?

btw, i am going to get my texas license asap, i was just being negligent about the paperwork

Your instructor should be able to provide some type of documentation, yes?
 
Do you have a CCW permit issued from the State of Utah?

If so, it has your picture on it, and number that can be verified with the Utah Department of Public Safety, which issued the permit. They can verify that it is not a fake, hasn't expired, and hasn't been revoked, just as they can with a Utah driver's license.

Texas state law says that such Utah permit is honored in Texas, whether you live in Texas, Utah, or East Overshoe, Maine, or moved to Texas a year ago from Hawaii. Your instructor has nothing to do with this now.
 
i do have a permit. but again, they claimed they called Utah on the spot and they had no record of me. i put in an email to the Utah Department of Public Safety that originally licensed me to carry in the first place. hopefully they'll be able to provide me with something to help.

they also said that the pictures on my permit and my DL weren't similar(the DL is when i was much younger) And said that seemed suspicious
 
On the back of the UT CFP there's information to verify the validity of the permit. Call BCI at: 801.965.4446 to verify the permit. The documentation you're looking for can be obtained from BCI by calling: 801.965.4445. You can also check out their website: Link Removed

According to the BCI website, UT has a formal reciprocity agreement with TX.


Good luck!



gf
 
excellent! this is all very encouraging! thank you all for you help. i'm gonna get the documentation from Utah and get this straightened out. Hopefully i'll be able to educate the officers in the process
 
If you have a valid Utah CWP, they not only have a record on you, the record is up to date. Utah runs an background check on every Resident permit holder every 30 days. They run a background check on every Non-Res holder every 90 days.
 
Not a damn thing. I went up to the police station the next day, got my weapon and mags back without so much as an apology or a "whoops our bad".

To be honest with you, i really didn't go any further. i didn't know if it was something i could pursue legally or if it was even worth it. Rockwall TX cops are known for being "super-troopers" and all around dicks. i doubt i would have gotten very far. Needless to say, i drive safe as possible when going through Rockwall!
 
Not a damn thing. I went up to the police station the next day, got my weapon and mags back without so much as an apology or a "whoops our bad".

To be honest with you, i really didn't go any further. i didn't know if it was something i could pursue legally or if it was even worth it. Rockwall TX cops are known for being "super-troopers" and all around dicks. i doubt i would have gotten very far. Needless to say, i drive safe as possible when going through Rockwall!


I would avoid Rockwell on all matters if I were you.
 
those Texas state troopers are playing cowboy on the "false documents" nonsense. It would have been one thing to refuse to accept the Utah non-resident permit. It is quite another for accusing you of false documentation. They are from TEXAS, how do THEY know what a Utah permit looks like, or how to verify it?

Now, for your own safety.. always, always, ALWAYS get the carry permit from your OWN state as the priority. The Utah permit is a non-resident permit. Perhaps Utah and Texas DO have formal reciprocity, but I'd bet that is for RESIDENTS of Utah with RESIDENT Utah permits. Most states that recognise non-resident permits do that CONDITIONALLY upon the bearer having a valid permit from their state of residence.

get your OWN state's permit first. THEN work on some of the traveller's specials. I know for a fact that Kentucky will recognise ALL carry permits issued by the state of residence of the bearer. They will NOT recognise any non-resident permits.
Your instructor should have made this more clear... and recommended you get your Texas permit first. I would say he fell short in his duty if he knew you were going to wait on the Texas permit. Your own state's resident permit is the primary documentation.
 
[F]or your own safety.. always, always, ALWAYS get the carry permit from your OWN state as the priority. The Utah permit is a non-resident permit. Perhaps Utah and Texas DO have formal reciprocity, but I'd bet that is for RESIDENTS of Utah with RESIDENT Utah permits. Most states that recognise non-resident permits do that CONDITIONALLY upon the bearer having a valid permit from their state of residence.

Most? Hardly. According to the map at Handgunlaw.us there are six states that require one to be a resident of the state whose permits they honor. That leaves 33 states (if I counted correctly) which honor the permit whether the holder is a resident of the issuing state or not.

get your OWN state's permit first. THEN work on some of the traveller's specials. I know for a fact that Kentucky will recognize ALL carry permits issued by the state of residence of the bearer. They will NOT recognise any non-resident permits.

If you're a Ky. resident I suggest you reread your state's laws. http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/kentucky.pdf lists Kentucky as recognizing ALL other state's permits and nothing is said about the holder being a resident of the state whose permit she's carrying. Perhaps Kentucky once limited it to only residents of those states but that does not appear to be the current situation.

Your instructor should have made this more clear... and recommended you get your Texas permit first. I would say he fell short in his duty if he knew you were going to wait on the Texas permit. Your own state's resident permit is the primary documentation.

Untrue. I know for a fact (because I was actively involved with the group that wrote it) that Missouri's law recognizing ALL other states' permits was written as it is because it was expected that some sheriffs would be jerks (to put it mildly) about issuing. The option of getting an out of state permit was deliberately written to allow residents of counties with obstinate sheriffs to be able to legally carry.

The Utah permit is recognized in Texas. It is also recognized in Ohio and West Virginia where Texas' permit is not. Texas' permit is honored in New Mexico and Kansas where Utah's is not. If the party in question has reason to travel to Ohio or West Virginia but not New Mexico or Kansas it makes more sense to spend the money on the Utah permit. There is nothing requiring anyone to first get a permit in their state of residence so long as the states in which he or she will be traveling/residing recognize that permit.
 
My advice:

After you've got your documentation lined up don't bother with the property room; go directly to the chief. He's the one with the authority to make this all go away and the obligation to make sure his officers know and obey the law! Besides that, it's always easier to drop shit on somebody from above rather than try to push it up from below them. Keep the lawyer as a back-up plan!
Persevere, and please give us updates!
 
P.S.
Its always a good idea to go directly to the state laws in question; many are available via website these days. Other gun oriented sites are helpful but are not "the horses mouth".
 
Mr. Brolin of West Plains seems quite knowledgeable about these situations.

Maybe I could say that the laws change occasionally, and going to any state's website and copying the data is a smart thing to do..... and carry it in your vehicle.

Officers have no clue about reciprocal permits, and many are unsure of what the resident permit allows. (it changed a couple times)

Of course, it will probably NOT help you on the side of the road, as super troopers are convinced that they are correct and love to wield power over the surfs.

Down here in Arkansas there is a thing called, "Tell it to the judge". And I promise you, when you get to court 2 months later it can cost you $2,000 (for a good lawyer, vehicle impound fees, towing fees, missed work, travel, etc.) to be proven right in court, even when the judge chews the trooper's butt out for wasting the court's time and says "not guilty, dismissed".

Trust me, it is an exciting proposition to be released onto the city streets of North Little Rock (severely racially challeged area) in your stocking feet, no car, no money, no cell phone (it was in the car), and be 150 miles from home.

I could relate being stopped at mile marker 3 in Indiana, and surrounded by 7 (seven) officers with their hands on their guns..... why? routine traffic inspection roadblock and their complaining about my legal 35% window tint...... oh ya, Arkansas license plates, of course.

Fun Fun Fun until Daddy takes the TBird away !!!!!!!!!
 

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
49,526
Messages
610,757
Members
74,961
Latest member
jacober
Back
Top