Aggressive panhandling: Scenario
MONTANA

MONTANA

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I am wondering what steps members would take to deal with an extremly agressive panhandler. This happened a few years ago in New Orleans before I had much training or real life experience, but it has continued to bother me when I remember how I dealt with it. I think the way I resolved it may have put future innocents in more danger as a result. I basically gave the guy money just to "leave us alone" (I think about three or four dollars). My spouse and I were walking down Boubon Street. This pandhandler was approaching people and asking if they would like to have a shoe shine. He had no shoe-shine equipment. I should have immediately crossed to the other side of the street but it was very crowded and for some reason did not even notice this guy until I was right on top of him. He was a wiry little muscular guy---perhaps a homeless veteran but I am only guessing. He looked like he could handle himself and appeared to be counting on his ability to escalate in front of other pedestrians in order to get what he wanted. He dropped to his knees in front of me, spit on my atletic shoes, and began to "polish" them with the sleeve of his coat. I immediately pulled away and ordered him to "leave us alone". He was more than ready to escalate the situation and demanded money for the "shoe shine". I again ordered him to leave us alone and attempted to walk around him. He then got directly in front of me (within arm's length) and refused to step aside. I was armed but did not have a taser or pepper spray. I could have hit him or attempted a brachial stun or other technique if I wanted to escalate to physical agression. He did not display a weapon or threaten with a weapon. What I did was say to the guy, "look, here is $4.00". It is not for you spitting on my shoes and rubbing them with your sleeve. It is for you to get away from us and leave us alone. I remember it thinking what a bad decision it was........I basically told this guy "look, if you are willing to be hyper-aggressive, it will pay off". How far would members go in dealing with this type of aggressive panhandling? Would you use pepper spray? A Taser? Do the same thing?
 

My generic response to panhanlers is "Can't help you, I don't have any cash." It's worked most of the time. In one case, I just came out of a store, and had a couple of bags of misc. items. The guy asked me "how did you buy that?" I told him "This store takes plastic, have a nice day."

It's good to have a plan before getting into situations like this.




gf
 
Good question..
I'll be standing by to see peoples responses...

25gunhd.jpg
 
Glock Fan said:
My generic response to panhanlers is "Can't help you, I don't have any cash." It's worked most of the time. In one case, I just came out of a store, and had a couple of bags of misc. items. The guy asked me "how did you buy that?" I told him "This store takes plastic, have a nice day."

It's good to have a plan before getting into situations like this.




gf
Click to expand...
Very good points and this is usually the way I handle the more common panhandlers. However, remember he didn't initially ask ME for money. He just dropped to his knees and pretended to "shine" my shoes and then demanded money after I jerked away from him. I attempted to walk around him but he stepped in front of me within arm's length and that is when he demanded the money. I should have been more aware of my surroundings and crossed to the other side of the street when I first saw him asking others for money. But I was pretty green at that time......
 
I'm large enough (and ugly enough) that I could (and have) get by with: "Move it, son" and then walk on around them. Admittedly, I never had one drop to the ground to spit on my shoes, so that's different.

OTOH, I've known folks who would keep a few bucks in their pockets just for instances like these. When confronted, pop a couple bucks to the guy and keep moving...just the price of doing business, I guess.
 
Well, that's part of the problem. People give them money to "go away". Then they are trained to hassle you because you will pay them to go away. I'd just tell them no and keep moving. In the past I have put my cell phone to my year (not really making a call) ...

"This is detective Morrison. I got a black male who's becoming violent. I need some backup at my location immediately"
They usually take off like a shot. The first guy I did that to was hopping around on crutches asking for $ and was being a pest. When I did the above scenario he threw the crutches down and sprinted away across parking lot. He even had some cloths wrapped all around his shin to look like an injury.







.
 
Oh I don't know, something to the effect of, "On your way or I'm going to call the police" comes to mind.

He'll either;

A) Leave you alone or
B) Continue to demand money, at which point you call the police or
C) He will get physical, which allows justification of physical force on your part
 
Scam artists

Never give money. Immediately pull out your phone and tell them you are calling the cops (be prepared for action). This will end the encounter 99% of the time.

When I lived on UT campus I was hit up for money almost every day. You get to where you can tell the scammers from the actual homeless. I never gave any money. Usually a threat to call the cops makes them back down quick.

One funny story, I had a homeless drunk hit me up for money outside my apt. and I asked what he wanted it for. He told me he needed new socks... Well it just so happened I had been to the laundy and still had a basket in the car, so I tossed him a pair of socks. He was confused, but sat down and changed socks.:sarcastic:
Had another one where a woman wanted money to get a flat fixed. Well I had a tire plug kit and told her I would fix it for her. When I asked where the car was she got nervous, mumbled something incoherent and walked off. :biggrin:
 
I guess we're farily lucky here. We have aggresive laws against that kind of panhandling and they're enforced. Fortunately, I haven't had exactly that happen anywhere else I've been....yet.

I'd just have walked across the street, crowded or not. I wouldn't get verbally aggressive back as you have no way of knowing how stable this individual, or any other for that matter, is and you definately don't want this to escalate especially with the wife in harm's way. If he is persistant, a simple "Please go away or I'm going to call a cop" should suffice and just keep walking. Don't give excuses because he's heard them all and you're wasting breath. Definately don't give him money. I understand why you did, but don't if this happens again.
 
MONTANA said:
Very good points and this is usually the way I handle the more common panhandlers. However, remember he didn't initially ask ME for money. He just dropped to his knees and pretended to "shine" my shoes and then demanded money after I jerked away from him. I attempted to walk around him but he stepped in front of me within arm's length and that is when he demanded the money. I should have been more aware of my surroundings and crossed to the other side of the street when I first saw him asking others for money. But I was pretty green at that time......
Click to expand...

I would have still gone with the "Don't have any money" line, then politely say something like "Please step aside before you force me to call the police." All of this while I reach for my cell phone with my left hand, taking a defensive body position and preparing to put the guy down with a well placed kick/punch if necessary.

If he backs down, great! I would then simply move on. If the guy goes ballistic, I would take appropriate action and proceed with the 911 call and defend myself if necessary. In any case, I would not give the scumbag money, as I agree with the others in that this would encourage him to continue the behavior in the future.

Unless the guy confronts me with "deadly force", I would not draw my firearm. Once he picks up a knife, bat, brick, etc., then all bets are off and I would respond accordingly.



gf
 
Unfettered Might said:
Oh I don't know, something to the effect of, "On your way or I'm going to call the police" comes to mind.

He'll either;

A) Leave you alone or
B) Continue to demand money, at which point you call the police or
C) He will get physical, which allows justification of physical force on your part
Click to expand...
Good points. Here is an unrelated true story. I once had a guy tell me at the mental health center that he had killed someone earlier in the morning in New Orleans. He gave me the name of the person, described the apartment where he had allegedly commited the crime, and told me how he allegedly did the crime. I called NOPD. Their response? I'm sure the guy will turn up if he was really killed. They wouldn't even make a courtesy run by the address to see if the guy was dead or alive. Unfortunately, these aggressive panhandlers in New Orleans, at that time, knew how it worked. I don't know if the city has changed in that area or not.
 
I lived in NYC for a while.. People would ask me for money.. I would say, hey if you're hungry, I'll buy you a slice of pizza.. 95% of the time, they would just walk off..
It's hard to buy booze with a slice of pizza.
 
IIf I see a panhandler approaching and I can't cross the street in time I'll engage them first, by asking them for spare change. They usually walk away confused.
 
A true story,

Once while waiting at a traffic light at an off ramp from the expressway, a favorite spot for panhandlers in this area, I spotted a guy with a sign that read;

Need Money For Beer

I laughed my butt off, called him over and handed him 10 dollars for being honest and making me laugh so hard. The one and only time I have ever given money.
 
MONTANA said:
I am wondering what steps members would take to deal with an extremly agressive panhandler. This happened a few years ago in New Orleans before I had much training or real life experience, but it has continued to bother me when I remember how I dealt with it. I think the way I resolved it may have put future innocents in more danger as a result. I basically gave the guy money just to "leave us alone" (I think about three or four dollars). My spouse and I were walking down Boubon Street. This pandhandler was approaching people and asking if they would like to have a shoe shine. He had no shoe-shine equipment. I should have immediately crossed to the other side of the street but it was very crowded and for some reason did not even notice this guy until I was right on top of him. He was a wiry little muscular guy---perhaps a homeless veteran but I am only guessing. He looked like he could handle himself and appeared to be counting on his ability to escalate in front of other pedestrians in order to get what he wanted. He dropped to his knees in front of me, spit on my atletic shoes, and began to "polish" them with the sleeve of his coat. I immediately pulled away and ordered him to "leave us alone". He was more than ready to escalate the situation and demanded money for the "shoe shine". I again ordered him to leave us alone and attempted to walk around him. He then got directly in front of me (within arm's length) and refused to step aside. I was armed but did not have a taser or pepper spray. I could have hit him or attempted a brachial stun or other technique if I wanted to escalate to physical agression. He did not display a weapon or threaten with a weapon. What I did was say to the guy, "look, here is $4.00". It is not for you spitting on my shoes and rubbing them with your sleeve. It is for you to get away from us and leave us alone. I remember it thinking what a bad decision it was........I basically told this guy "look, if you are willing to be hyper-aggressive, it will pay off". How far would members go in dealing with this type of aggressive panhandling? Would you use pepper spray? A Taser? Do the same thing?
Click to expand...

There's many options here, mostly common sense stuff... Avoidance, i personally did some crazy stuff to PANHANDLERS, nothing physical, but lets just say, acting crazier than they appeared... lol

DON'T pull your weapon on a homeless unarmed person, once you pull your weapon, all the legalities come out with it. If your isolated somewhere MAYBE, just remember if you draw your weapon and the bluff doesn't work, then what. Remember the cop who drew his weapon because someone in a crowd threw a snowball at his car, NOT TACTICALLY SOUND, his emotions and ego got in the way. What would of happened if he just kept driving while getting a visual ID for his MEMORY FILE.

The best advice i could give you without all the variables, STOP... make like your checking your pockets for cash while exposing your weapon for a visual effect, and state CAN'T HELP YOU, AND START TO WALK AWAY. He will then have to make a decision about getting aggressive with a person whose ARMED.

Now we can throw a thousand variables into different actions, exposing your weapon is better than drawing it, just make sure you don't expose it so it can be grabbed.
 
In the comfort of my office, it is easy to think about tactical situations from a strategic position, but on the field of battle, well, no battle plan ever survived first contact with the enemy.

From my armchair quarterback perspective, giving him money was bad, allowing him to get so close in the first place was worse, walking away intact....priceless. Sometimes lack of awareness in the urban jungle is just as fatal as lack of awareness where the predators walk on 4 legs....

after all is said and done, nobody went to the morgue or hospital. It only cost you $4. Call it a victory and move on :-)
 
He dropped to his knees in front of me, spit on my atletic shoes, and began to "polish" them with the sleeve of his coat.
Click to expand...

The guy spit on you!!! It doesn't matter what his reason was, he spit on you. I'm all for diffusing the situation, but there is no way in hell I would give him money after he spit on me. And that's exactly what I'd tell him as I walked away. If he wanted to push it after that point then I'd call the cops and press for assualt charges.
 
Thanks folks, all good points. I just never had anyone do anything like this before and admit that I let myself get caught completely off-guard. It was a good lesson for me and I'm thankful it only cost me about $4.00 (and aggravation each time I think about it.)
 
panhandler at wally world

Ok so i read this thread the other day and gave some thought to what i would do. Took some advice adjusted others then sorta made my own plan as it would be. Fast forward about 10 hours....i work 2nd shift 3-11. I get off work yesterday and needed a few things from Wally World. No big deal do it all the time right. In the store i run into a fellow co-worker( funny how many of us are there at midnight???? lol) and we talk and end up in one of two open check out lines. As we are talking 2 "gentlemen"(term used very loosely) are attempting to buy 1 tire with a check that the stores computer wont take. Not being nosy but aware as they loudly debate the worth of the check with the manager on duty i make a mental note to myself as i look around for options and avenues of escape and cover should things go sideways. The 2 finally figure out that the store is not going to accept the check and the manager is not going to just give them the tire and leave. I pay for my stuff say farewell to fellow co-worker(female btw) and head to my truck. Once in the parking lot low and behold who should appear?? No not Santa but 1 of the 2 guys that was just trying to buy a tire. He comes at me at a rather quick pace and being already in a heightened state of alertness i turn with my weak side to him take a couple steps backward while my strong side hand moves to the front of my open jacket "just in case". And for the record just knowing that my xd40 was right there locked and loaded felt really really good. So as the guy sees this he suddenly pulls up short saying he was a good guy hands up and all as i took a couple more side steps away from him. He proceeds to give me a five and dime sob story about how his buddies pastor gave him the check and he needs the tire to get home ect. ect. I quickly process this info....1 how did you get to Wally World at midnight with out a tire? 2 you live in a town only 5 minutes form here so why can't your buddy get you home till you work this out ect. So as he is telling me his plight i recall this thread look the guy in the eye and tell him i have no cash and walk away from him....actually back away from him. He realizes he isn't getting anywhere with me and turns to leave. At about this time fellow co-worker exits store(yes i was going to wait and make sure she got safely to her car too) ..i watch as she yells at me for parking too close to her car and as we share a laugh guy sees this and disappears arcoss the parking lot. I relate what happened to her then wait till she is in her car before leaving. Get to work today and am telling a few co-workers when one starts asking guys desciption. Turns out same guy approached her and her 2yo one night asking for gas money. Yes i did go to Wally World and inform the manager on duty who said he would notify LEO as these guys had been doing this for a few weeks. Sorry this was so long but after i got home last night i just had to stop and think....all the what if's. Never saw the other guy who was in the strore but not because i wasn't looking. So guys and gals....thanks for some insight and please don't hesitate to post senarios and situations for us all to read ponder and digest. Never know when something so simple can save someones life. I never felt in danger but i think alot of that had to do will knowing i was ready.....plus 13 rounds of .40sw jacketed hollow points on my hip didn't hurt either. Like i said sorry so long but keep up the good work guys>
 
d-buck said:
Ok so i read this thread the other day and gave some thought to what i would do. Took some advice adjusted others then sorta made my own plan as it would be. Fast forward about 10 hours....i work 2nd shift 3-11. I get off work yesterday and needed a few things from Wally World. No big deal do it all the time right. In the store i run into a fellow co-worker( funny how many of us are there at midnight???? lol) and we talk and end up in one of two open check out lines. As we are talking 2 "gentlemen"(term used very loosely) are attempting to buy 1 tire with a check that the stores computer wont take. Not being nosy but aware as they loudly debate the worth of the check with the manager on duty i make a mental note to myself as i look around for options and avenues of escape and cover should things go sideways. The 2 finally figure out that the store is not going to accept the check and the manager is not going to just give them the tire and leave. I pay for my stuff say farewell to fellow co-worker(female btw) and head to my truck. Once in the parking lot low and behold who should appear?? No not Santa but 1 of the 2 guys that was just trying to buy a tire. He comes at me at a rather quick pace and being already in a heightened state of alertness i turn with my weak side to him take a couple steps backward while my strong side hand moves to the front of my open jacket "just in case". And for the record just knowing that my xd40 was right there locked and loaded felt really really good. So as the guy sees this he suddenly pulls up short saying he was a good guy hands up and all as i took a couple more side steps away from him. He proceeds to give me a five and dime sob story about how his buddies pastor gave him the check and he needs the tire to get home ect. ect. I quickly process this info....1 how did you get to Wally World at midnight with out a tire? 2 you live in a town only 5 minutes form here so why can't your buddy get you home till you work this out ect. So as he is telling me his plight i recall this thread look the guy in the eye and tell him i have no cash and walk away from him....actually back away from him. He realizes he isn't getting anywhere with me and turns to leave. At about this time fellow co-worker exits store(yes i was going to wait and make sure she got safely to her car too) ..i watch as she yells at me for parking too close to her car and as we share a laugh guy sees this and disappears arcoss the parking lot. I relate what happened to her then wait till she is in her car before leaving. Get to work today and am telling a few co-workers when one starts asking guys desciption. Turns out same guy approached her and her 2yo one night asking for gas money. Yes i did go to Wally World and inform the manager on duty who said he would notify LEO as these guys had been doing this for a few weeks. Sorry this was so long but after i got home last night i just had to stop and think....all the what if's. Never saw the other guy who was in the strore but not because i wasn't looking. So guys and gals....thanks for some insight and please don't hesitate to post senarios and situations for us all to read ponder and digest. Never know when something so simple can save someones life. I never felt in danger but i think alot of that had to do will knowing i was ready.....plus 13 rounds of .40sw jacketed hollow points on my hip didn't hurt either. Like i said sorry so long but keep up the good work guys>
Click to expand...

Who... what... where... time. its late, your isolated... parking lot... questionable person approaches from a prior encounter. At this point a person has to get focus, and go on the offense. Example... SIR... (with your Palm facing him) STOP right there please, can i help you?

People have a tendency to observe and respond to hand gestures, keep as much distance as possible from your TARGET, your survival rate increases if he decides to shoot. Distance is an advantage to the train shooter, a thug SPRAYS AND PRAYS, without aiming more luck is needed. The odds are you will hit your target at a distance, he will not, if you can focus and default to your training.

Does anyone remember when they first started shooting, or knew of someone who under perfect conditions couldn't hit the Silhouette, or may of hit 2-3 out of 10 at 10 feet. After practicing your Mechanics over time, you now hit 8 out of 10 at 25 feet, or you may be a dead shot at 50 feet. The advantage goes to the train shooter as distance increases from your target, training and understanding training will help you survive, will help you react, or not react. It all starts with going to the range and shooting at still targets.

But Range shooting doesn't make you ready, tactical/combat type training will help you take your Mechanics to higher levels of alertness and reaction, because sometimes the best shot... is the one not taken. You can only default to your training... if you have no training, what will you default too.

Also be aware of your surroundings if cover, distance, or escape is needed. Anyone remember the shooter outside the court house shooting at the lawyer in the middle of the day. What kept that lawyer ALIVE, COVER & MOVING behind a tree... that's it... nothing else. His shooter had no training, or didn't apply it, he was SPRAYING AND PRAYING at close range... THE LAWYER SURVIVED, and at the end of the day... that's all that matters.

I know and understand training cost money, but if you have means and opportunity try taking some classes, it fun and interesting to say the least.
 
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