Accidental Discharge question

[FN1910]

6. We do not believe in the concept of “accidental discharges”. There are no accidental discharges only negligent discharges or intentional discharges. We take responsibility for our actions and have learned how to safely handle firearms. Any case you have ever heard of about a gun “going off” was the result of negligence on somebody’s part. Our recognition of our responsibility and familiarity with firearms makes us among the safest firearms owners in America.

I posted this under this forum because the quote above was in it and I don'y necessarily agree with it. A while back I bought a used Remington 700 in 30-06. It appeared to be in good shape and seemed to work fine. I cleaned if good and carried it out to test it out. everything seemed to work fine. When I decided to pack back up I had one shot in the chanber and one in the magazine. I unloaded the magazine and proceeded to remove the one from the chamber. This was and older model 700 and you could not unlock the bolt with the safety engaged. I pointed the gun in a safe direction, flipped the safety off and the gun fired. Talk about scaring the stuffings out of someone.

Was this a negligent discharge. I suppose I could have had it checked out by a gunsmith before trying it out. I possibly could have looked up the notice that Remington was willing to pay for the modification to allow it to be unbolted with the safety on. I could have fired all the rounds in it before packing up but that may have caused real problems.

I did take it bakc home and found that taking the safety off would cause it to fire about 1 out of 10 times and after a thorough cleaning and adjusting of the trigger it didn't do it any more.

Negligence is when your actions are not those of a normal responsible person. How many of you take very used gun you buy to a gunsmith to have fully checked out? I think there are some cases of accidental discharge.

 

[Cooter]

I agree, there are certain rare occasions that I would classify as 'accidental' instead of negligent; such as your experience. It was a mechanical malfunction, with no negligence from the operator.

I had a similiar experience with an old SKS. The previous owner didn't take good care of it, and probably never cleaned it. I was demonstrating the action to a friend of mine, using live rounds, with the muzzle ponting in a safe direction. When I let the bolt go forward, the rifle slam-fired on it's own. Scared the crap out of both of us, but no harm was done. I didn't even know what a slam fire was at the time, I had my finger away from the trigger, but the gun malfunctioned. Although, I could have used dummy rounds if I had any.

I think one more catagory should be added to the quote, besides negligent and intentional...mechanical malfunction.

 

[Glock Fan]

AD vs. ND

In our NRA classes, we teach the difference between an "accidental" and "negligent" discharge. The "accidental" discharge occurs due to a mechanical or equipment malfunction. The firearm operator didn't do anything that would normally cause the firearm to discharge. The two previous examples are demonstrations of an "accidental" discharge.

A "negligent" discharge occurs when the firearms operator unintentionally causes the firearm to discharge. This means that the operator did something that was directly responsible for causing the discharge (like touching the trigger when they're not supposed to). Most of the incidents of "accidental discharges" reported by the media were actually "negligent discharges".

As "Cooter" brought up, there are 3 types of discharges;

1) Intentional
2) Negligent
3) Accidental

In recent months, the media in some parts of the country have begun to use the term "unintentional discharge" which covers both "accidental" and "negligent" discharges.



gf

 

[scdapmp]

I agree, there are certain rare occasions that I would classify as 'accidental' instead of negligent; such as your experience. It was a mechanical malfunction, with no negligence from the operator.

I had a similiar experience with an old SKS. The previous owner didn't take good care of it, and probably never cleaned it. I was demonstrating the action to a friend of mine, using live rounds, with the muzzle ponting in a safe direction. When I let the bolt go forward, the rifle slam-fired on it's own. Scared the crap out of both of us, but no harm was done. I didn't even know what a slam fire was at the time, I had my finger away from the trigger, but the gun malfunctioned. Although, I could have used dummy rounds if I had any.

I think one more catagory should be added to the quote, besides negligent and intentional...mechanical malfunction.

A friend of mine had a slam fire on an AR. I had never heard of it before... scary stuff.

 

[devildave31]

I would never rule out the possibility of a weapon malfunctioning and firing even when properly handled. This is exactly why I will drill into my children the basic safety rules that I learned in the Marines. Treat all weapons as if they were loaded, never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot, keep weapon on safe until you are ready to fire, keep your finger off of the trigger until you are ready to fire. As long as you follow all the rules, even a fluke firing like you had, should not pose much of a hazard.

 

[TAC]

To me, this sounds like an accidental discharge.

Based on your description of events, you did not negligently make any move or action that caused the weapon to fire. If the weapon fires just by disabling the safety, without having your finger one the trigger, then that would make it a mechanical malfunction which is indeed an accidental discharge.

A negligent discharge is when you do something, either intentionally or unintentionally. That causes the weapon to fire when you did not want to.

 

[FN1910]

I thank all of you for your responses. I started this thread because I wanted to demonstrate the problems of making broad staments with no alternatives. There are some of us that have certain ingrained ideas that we just cannot seem to vary on and say things that sometimes need a loophole. :wacko: The real problem comes in wheh that need for a loophole comes out and we refuse to recognize it and try to defend our opinions. Remember that opinions are like a certain part of the body, almost everyone has one and some just stink. Notice I said most as I know some people that have colostomy bags instead. :laugh:

 

[Hounddog]

I remember very vividly one unintentional discharge. My buddy and I were at the range and he was shooting a commercial bolt action rifle (sorry, too long ago to remember the model). He had a round that seemed a little tight. When he finished closing the bolt, the rifle went off. His hand was nowhere near the trigger. Luckily he had the rifle pointed in a safe direction but it sure scared the daylights out of me. I seem to remember that a piece of styrofoam has worked into the mechanism, so I think it was related to that.

 

[Mr. Vegas]

I had a 1911 discharge on me one time. I was out in the field doin some shooting and loaded a clip. It belonged to a buddy of mine so I can't remember who it was made by but anyway I slid the clip in raised the gun, pointed it at the target and dropped the slide with the slide release....no finger on trigger and about 8 rounds fired off like it was a full auto it only quit because it finally failed to feed a round..!!! I still don't know what the hell caused it but it scared the hell outa me..

 

[Cooter]

Sounds like the firing pin was stuck forward, turned it into an open bolt 1911 machine gun. :biggrin:

 

[Mr. Vegas]

Sounds like the firing pin was stuck forward, turned it into an open bolt 1911 machine gun. :biggrin:

that was my best guess to....man that thing cycled fast ...8 or 9 rounds in what seemed like 2 seconds

 

[Scarecrow]

I had a 1911 discharge on me one time. I was out in the field doin some shooting and loaded a clip. It belonged to a buddy of mine so I can't remember who it was made by but anyway I slid the clip in raised the gun, pointed it at the target and dropped the slide with the slide release....no finger on trigger and about 8 rounds fired off like it was a full auto it only quit because it finally failed to feed a round..!!! I still don't know what the hell caused it but it scared the hell outa me..

a friend of mine had that happen with his SKS. he was taking some young men from church on a shooting activity and the firing pin was stuck. so even with no finger on the trigger it emptied the mag in full auto fire. one of the young men was shooting it at the time so my friend reached over quick and grabbed the barrel to keep it from rising.

 

[2beararms]

I had a 1911 discharge on me one time. I was out in the field doin some shooting and loaded a clip. It belonged to a buddy of mine so I can't remember who it was made by but anyway I slid the clip in raised the gun, pointed it at the target and dropped the slide with the slide release....no finger on trigger and about 8 rounds fired off like it was a full auto it only quit because it finally failed to feed a round..!!! I still don't know what the hell caused it but it scared the hell outa me..

Accidental right?? Not likely in the eyes of the ATF, the nearest agent would see that at "converting a 1911 handgun to full automatic". See in government land there is no "accidental" anything ... only sinister crimes.:angry:

 

[wolfhunter]

I'm still trying to figure out where to put a clip in a 1911. Sounds like a conversion to me.

 

[dancingwolf]

I agree that there ALWAYS exists the possibility that a mechanical malfunction will cause a gun to fire accidently. That is one of the reasons for ALWAYS pointing the muzzle AWAY from anything you don't wish to destroy AT ALL TIMES - NO EXCEPTIONS!

I also agree, however, that the majority of discharges not intentional are, in fact, caused by negligence on the part of the shooter.

 

[1911 Headbanger]

If you bought the rifle "used", someone may have "adjusted" the trigger. It's a common problem. If the trigger has been tampered with, it can happen when the safety is released, or if you pull the trigger with the safety on, release the trigger and flip the safety off. The pressure you applied to the sear with the trigger adjusted too light, my be just enough to cause it to let go, when the safety is flipped off. May need a gunsmith or factory check if you don't know how to check it yourself.

 

[FN1910]

If you bought the rifle "used", someone may have "adjusted" the trigger. It's a common problem. If the trigger has been tampered with, it can happen when the safety is released, or if you pull the trigger with the safety on, release the trigger and flip the safety off. The pressure you applied to the sear with the trigger adjusted too light, my be just enough to cause it to let go, when the safety is flipped off. May need a gunsmith or factory check if you don't know how to check it yourself.

Remington recognized the problem and had a recall on all model 700's that would not unbolt with the safety on. It was not a recall but an offer for any owner that they would either repair or replace the trigger along with modifying it to allow the bolt to open with the safety on for a charge of $10. Luckily I live near an authorized Remington repair center and dropped it off one day and picked it up the next. Got a thorough cleaning along with a new trigger for $10.

 

[Glock Fan]

The only handgun that I know of that used clips was the Mauser Broomhandle.

Didn't know that they made any semi-auto handguns that used "clips". Thought they were restricted to revolvers.

Semi-auto handgun with a "clip"

Difference between a "clip" and "magazine"



gf

 

[AvidshooterTX]

Slam fires with military-style firearms like the SKS and AR are more common because they do not have springs to hold back the firing pin like most sporting rifles.

 

[ggtgary]

Talk about mechanical malfuntions. An acquaintance of mine bought a used 45 colt from an individual. He loaded the magazine, inserted it, and jacked a round in the chamber. It not only slammed fired, but continued to fire until empty. Took out his refrigerator.