Able to be sued for use of hollow point?

[countrytoby]

I don't know if I could get sued or not over my ammo. I have my guns loaded with a soft nose round with a flat point lead bullet. They are 200 grain and .45 caliber. Some are long colt and some are for a semi auto. They are loaded light but enought to make the semi work good. I don't really think they would go thru someone and hit someone else (depending where they were hit). But I don't know cause I have never shot anyone. Now that I have some disabillities, I figger I better carry something that will stop an advancing attacter and give me at least a chance to survive.

 

[localgirl]

Just like everything else we talk about on this forum, it has to do with PERCEPTION.

"Hollow point" sounds a little scary, but it's been around long enough, and enough people now know that it is a safer round for bystanders, that it probably wouldn't matter in most cases.

However, modifying your trigger pull, using a tricked-out AR, or being in possession of a box of ammo called "Super Deluxe Cop-killing Sniper Bullets" would give the prosecution plenty of emotional ammunition, so to speak.

Ask yourself, am I making it LOOK like I enjoy shooting people? Am I making it LOOK like I invite trouble? Facts only go so far. A madman shooting up a crowd with a fifty year old bolt action rifle comes off as more sane than the one using the aforementioned tricked-out, scary-looking, black plastic semi-automatic "assault rifle."

 

[tuts40]

May have already been said here, but being riddled with ADD i don't wanna read all the responses, so here goes...

You can be sued for anything, anything at all. You may win the case if sued for something that is silly, like being sued for having a gun that is not orange in color... Most all police dept's use hollowpoints. Why, (often) more effective in stopping attacks than FMJ rounds. Sooooo, I've heard it said that if you use the same round your local PD uses, well, then you may well get a pass due to the fact that if you are sued for using the same horrible, child shredding, tissue evaporating, grandma slicing, anti-happy rounds that your local PD uses, well, need I splain further?

 

[shermr]

Your most likely to be sued if your attacker lives. Your more likely to kill your attacker with quality defensive ammo. First protect your life, then let your lawyer protect your right and need to use a firearm.

 

[Caribou]

First you need to survive the fight then you need to survive the legal system. It is important that you are able to explain your choice in ammo as well as your choice in gun, why you pulled the gun, why you pulled the trigger, and a few other questions. Don't be too anxious to answer questions till after your attorney is present. You may be asked to prove that you knew this before the incident. Buy a few books (there are many to choose from) initial and date them after you have read them. Ayoob's name has come up here repeatedly, a couple of his books would be a great place to start. His "In the Gravest Extreme" is a must read IMHO.

 

[whitetiger]

The police carry Jhp too, FBI, and everyone.

 

[RenoDude50]

Noted self defense expert Massad Ayoob has commented extensively on this. First of all, there is no law banning civilian use of hollow points in the USA. Only NATO has voluntarily banned its use. In any case, when Mr.
Ayoob is testifying for the defense he always points to the fact that this was purely a self defense measure
in using hollow points i.e., they are more effective in stopping the immediate threat while at the same time
offering some consideration for innocent bystanders by reducing the risk of over penetration.

 

[marcparis]

A truism about the American legal system is that anyone can be sued at anytime over anything. Assuming that they are legal in your jurisdiction it wouldn't let that stop you. However if a prosecutor or civil attorney tries to raise that argument in an SD trial, that's where you need an expert witness to debunk it and shut it down immediately (i.e counter points like "if HP are so vicious why do police use them", "Hollow points have a better chance at stopping the assailant quickly and therefore usually require fewer rounds and end up causing fewer deaths than if FMJs were used", "Higher risk of over penetration and collateral damage with FMJs" etc etc). The argument against HPs doesn't hold water and they only get away with it if your legal defense team (civil or criminal) lets them get away with it.

 

[FN1910]

To the OP, no someone cannot sure you just for using HollowPoints, .50 cal., or anything else. They can sue you for shooting them and then try to make the case that the damage you caused was execssive becaused you used some "exotic, unusual or overly powerful" weapon. The can also try to paint you as out looking for trouble because of the gun or ammo you used. However all of this depends on you shooting them in the first place. In other words if they can't sue you if you use cheap WWB ammo from wally world then they can't sue you because you used some ammo that cost $5 per round. They must begin with the basics and then expand on that. They can try to convince a jury that because you carried a $1,500 Kimber with custom grips and used special ammo instead of a .380 Hi-Point with FMJ that you were out looking for someone to shoot and it might or might not work.

As for the Castle Doctrine protecting you from a lawsuit, that is Internet hearsay and does not apply in real life. I have not heard of one state yet that actually defines how case actually falls under the CD. There was a recent case in SC that wound up in the State SC where they ruled that in that case the original trial judge had the ability to dismiss the case on the basis of the CD. This is the closest that I know of in any case where any actual guidelines were given on how to rule that a person is protected by the CD laws.

Take for instance you shoot someone in your home. The police and DA decide that you were justified and it fell completely under the CD. There is nothing in the laws to prevent the family of the dead person from suing you and claiming that the 10 Ga shotgun with 000 buckshot was excessive and you could have simply wounded him with the baseball bat lying on your coffee table. When it goes to a judge he can dismiss the case or let it go to a jury. There is nothing to prevent it from going right on through and could even wind up in the Supreme Court. When it is over and the Supreme Court rules in your favor then not only will you be resolved of all blame but the plantiff will be responsible for your legal bills. Good luck on collecting. Second there is no guarantee that the SC will rule in your favor (Stranger things have happened) even though the police and DA agreed with you. You will not be found criminally liable but lose in the civil case.

The point is that the Castle Doctrine laws provide a descroiption of a "good shoot" but no actual means to determine when the law applies other than the courts. Just like with the hollow point ammo they can't sue you for using hollow point ammo but can try to use it to influence the jury.

Now if you still think I am wrong about the Castle Doctrine laws of your state please read them carefully before calling me an idiot on this. As in the previous post in America anyone can sue anyone for just about anything. It doesn't mean they will win or make it to trial but they can file the suit.

 

[RenoDude50]

Castle laws by definition apply in the criminal law arena only, and provide an "excuse" or justification for the use of deadly force. However, some Castle laws are better than others and actually include immunity from civil liability as well. It would be nice if this feature was uniformly incorporated into the Castle Doctrine of all states adopting such statutes.

 

[shermr]

getting sued

It does not matter what kind of ammunition you use, if you use a firearm to shoot someone you can expect to be sued. They can be a wanted felon, rapist, etc., it doesn't matter......they can sue you, or if they are killed, their family can sue you. Anytime you use a firearm you can expect to explain why you chose to use deadly force in court. The "shot" person or family has nothing to lose, they will claim they were a victim. If you use a firearm, get a lawyer immediately.

 

[ironmike86]

Some would say it would be better to already have one on retainer if you carry a firearm for personal protection.

how do you do that?

 

[kelcarry]

Hey FN: Also remember that in SC, if it is considered a "good shoot", you are immune from civil liability--ie: no one can sue you. That does not mean they cannot bring a suit, but IMO (which does not really mean diddly squat), immunity means exactly that. Someone can sue but it aint goin far. As far as Castle Doctrine is concerned the terms "presumed imminent danger by a reasonable person" goes a long way to proving you innocent especially if the only other person is the slimebucket. IMO (more diddly squat) unless you shoot someone in the back, especially if he is leaving your home (even if he is carrying the family treasures), you have a good shoot under Castle Doctrine--again it comes down to evidence and dispositon of prosecutor. Case law in SC tends to favor the homeowner in almost every instance. Personally, if I am on a jury and the only shot causing death was in the back and at your front door, you have to do a lot of convincing to me that you were in imminent danger. I am also sure that the old wives tale about dragging him back into the house will not work.

 

[Dragonbreath]

Yes, you can be sued, but then you can ALWAYS be sued, by anyone, for anything, whether there's any merit to the lawsuit or not. The question is whether they will win. If you let the courtroom argument be about hollowpoints, you are more likely to lose. Make the argument about whether you were justified in shooting the perp or not. Shooting automatically assumes the possibility, even the likelihood, of killing someone, so if you were justified to take the risk of killing someone, then the tool you used is irrelevant; hollowpoint, knife, baseball bat, whatever. If you have to address the use of hollowpoints, you can point out that a hollowpoint is a good way to keep rounds from going through the perp and through walls and creating unintended collateral damage; it is a realistic and practical way to reduce risk to innocent bystanders, and that's why police use them.

 

[FN1910]

Hey FN: Also remember that in SC, if it is considered a "good shoot", you are immune from civil liability--ie: no one can sue you.[\b] That does not mean they cannot bring a suit, but IMO (which does not really mean diddly squat), immunity means exactly that. Someone can sue but it aint goin far. As far as Castle Doctrine is concerned the terms "presumed imminent danger by a reasonable person" goes a long way to proving you innocent especially if the only other person is the slimebucket. IMO (more diddly squat) unless you shoot someone in the back, especially if he is leaving your home (even if he is carrying the family treasures), you have a good shoot under Castle Doctrine--again it comes down to evidence and dispositon of prosecutor. Case law in SC tends to favor the homeowner in almost every instance. Personally, if I am on a jury and the only shot causing death was in the back and at your front door, you have to do a lot of convincing to me that you were in imminent danger. I am also sure that the old wives tale about dragging him back into the house will not work.

You are correct on being immune from civil liability but the wrong on them not being able to sue. Yes you can be sued but if it is found that it falls under the castle doctrine laws then you are immune from liability. Two totally different things. Also remember than the criminal and civil portions of the findings under this law are two different things as you can be found criminally liable and not liable in civil courts or the other way around.

SC Judicial Department

In the above case the judge in the original trial dismissed the charges after pre-trial evidence was submitted ruling he was entitled to immunity under the act. The state appealed to the SC on the basis that the judge did not have the ability to dismiss the case without hearing testimony in the trial. The Supreme Court sided with the judge. As far as I know this is the first case in SC that gives any direction on who can make a determination of immunity under the CD. A very interesting read if you get the chance.

It may be that the SC Supreme Court knows the intelligence level of the states lawyers but their published opinions are much easier to read and understand than those of some other states.

 

[SouthernBoy]

You can be sued for pretty much anything providing there are no laws to the contrary. In my state, whether or not you choose to use quality SD ammo (read that as effective expanding rounds or hollow point if you'd rather), make modifications to your trigger, use night sights, or anything else of the type is not going to be an issue in a criminal trial. As a lawyer knowledgeable in these areas once told me, the 800 pound gorilla in the room is going to be whether or not your actions were excusable.

In Virginia, we have what is known as an affirmative defense. Your attorney is going to put you on the stand and ask you, "Mr. Smith, did you shoot Mr. Jones?" to which you'll respond, "Yes sir, I did". He is then going to ask, "Under the same set of circumstances, would you do so again?" to which you would reply, "Yes sir, I would". This is going to make a zealous prosecutor's task to show negligence or anything of the sort pretty darned hard since you just admitted that you did what you did deliberately and would do it again.

Now IF the perp or his family try to sue, they are going to have a very hard uphill battle on their hands to prove you are somehow at fault for the his actions. I have asked a county sheriff candidate and a commonwealth's attorney if they see many cases of law suits filed against someone who was judged to have acted within the scope of the law and both said it was very rare in Virginia. Yes, it can happen, but not very likely or common place.

As far as ammunition is concerned, use the best you can find and afford. Do your research, stay current, and apply some good common sense. And for God's sake, don't listen to people who obviously don't know what they're talking about or are so full of crap they hardly know which end the rounds comes out of. Read, learn, research, and pay attention to those who can offer valuable information. Making a mistake with the choice of SD ammunition or if the time comes when you must use it could cost you more than money. It could cost your life or your freedom.

 

[agrippakc]

Self defens ammo

In the class I took they only recommended hollow points. The best way to avoid trouble is to call your loval police department and ask what ammo their officers use and go with that.

 

[agrippakc]

Kansas

Also, ks state law protects homeowners from any.civil lawsuits when force is justifiably used under castle doctrine and I think that also includes our stand your ground law.

 

[FN1910]

Also, ks state law protects homeowners from any.civil lawsuits when force is justifiably used under castle doctrine and I think that also includes our stand your ground law.

Who decides if the force is justifiably used under the CD or SYG laws? In most states is may be a DA or/and a Judge or a Jury. If it is a jury that decides whether it is criminal or civil that means after a trial.

 

[SouthernBoy]

In the class I took they only recommended hollow points. The best way to avoid trouble is to call your loval police department and ask what ammo their officers use and go with that.

Don't bet on it. A number of departments go with the lowest bid. Do you want to trust your life to that? Better to do your research and spend a good amount of time at it. You'll benefit from your efforts. Besides, why would you think that police are experts when it comes to firearms and ammunition?