A Concept - The Stocked Pistol

[Gabe Suarez]

The Stocked Pistol

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In the dim past, when the first functional self-loading pistols became available, it was examined as what we would today call a PDW (personal defense weapon). Unlike the infantry rifle, or other long gun, this was meant to defend the user and extend the capabilities of the pistol.

The first stocked self-loading pistol was the Borchardt, a clumsy but functional for the day, pistol. It incorportaed a flat detachable stock. Eventually Mauser and Luger expanded on the idea as well as Mr. Browning and Mr. Webley. In fact, it was a common accessory for military pistols of the pre-WW2 era...and subsequent designs such as the HK VP-70 and others that followed.

Because of our ever protective governments infringements, having a stocked pistol requires some fancy footwork in terms of licenses and such, but it really only costs an additional $200 for those who still live in free states. So the question is...why?

Recently, I was exposed to the concept of the pistol caliber carbine. Our good friend and staff instructor Karl Johnson relates how he favors such a weapon in certain environments where a full assault rifle, or a shotgun might not be desired. As well, I have discussed his with some acquaintances who favor an SBR semi auto UZI for home defense, and as a compact PDW. I know another man who owns a Skorpian VZ61 pistol that has been SBRd and has a stock. But none of these aforementioned weapons have full auto capability so in reality, the rate of fire of a semi auto Uzi is no different than that of a Glock.

The first big question I suppose is this. It is not a rifle, and only has the ballistic capability of a pistol, so why add a stock to a pistol? In my studies I have found that a stock does two things.

1). It allows a much steadier hold on the weapon than you can get from any piostol positiuon. Stedaier hold means greater long range accuracy as well as more precise short range accuracy.

2). it allows greater recoil/muzzle flip control and thus allows for a much quicker follow up shot, or shots. These two things cannot be denied by anyone who tries the concept.

The next big question is where would this be an asset? I personally use a pistol for home defense. The reason is simple. There are too many people inside to reach for either a shotgun or an assault rifle. Additionally, I may have the need to move from room to room securing non-combatants, and that cannot be done with a long gun. Of course, the XO is backing me up, but still, the maneuverability of the short gun cannot be beaten in this realm.

I also recall many years ago when I would creep around other people's houses looking for bad guys, the MP5 and Colt Commando would often be left and I would opt for a pistol alone in order to be more maneuverable. In this environment, a stocked pistol would be the best of both worlds.

Another issue would be travelling in an NPE, or an SRE (socially restricted environment), a stocked pistol can be disassembled of the stock, and the stock can remain with you while you holster the pistol itself. Or an entire stocked pistol with several magazines can fit into a lap top bag.

A good candidate for this would be a Glock 34. One can obtain a detachable stock for this, as well as 33 round magazines, making this a very compact and versatile PDW. Add an Insights Light mount, and there is very little that cannot be done with this werapon inside its ballistic limits.

Those who live in free areas can submit the governmental paperwork to make it legal very easily and have a weapon that fits the gap between a CCW pistol and a full blown assault rifle. Interesting concept that we may explore further.
__________________
Gabe Suarez

One Source Tactical
Suarez International USA
Christian Warrior Ministries

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword

 

[NDS]

Without paying the MAN a substatial chunk of change, you have to have a 16" barrel to legally put a stock on a pistol. While doing so gives you a light carbine--you've still got a pistol round. The popularity of SMGs and semi auto carbines like the HiPoint and KelTec (among many others) shows there's a market. There is a case to be made for being able to lose the stock and replace the long barrel with a pistol barrel and you have your pistol back. My experience is that it's really not worth the hassle. If I want a rifle, I carry a rifle that fires a rifle cartridge.
Colt 1911 / 1911A1 Carbine Stock & Barrel Set*|*e-GunParts.com

Yes, it's mine. Not as handy as a pistol, not as powerful as a rifle. And, I'm a guy who keeps buying pistol caliber carbines. I've owned Marlins, Rossis, Volunteer .45s, HiPoints, KelTecs--they come and go with my mood. I don't know what my crazy fascination is with the concept. My folding stock AKs are just as handy and have so little recoil there's no reason to limit myself to a pistol caliber rifle.

 

[festus]

This is from another thread but relevant here as well

First and foremost, I am a rifleman. I eat, drink, sleep, and dream rifle ballistics. I used to think that a pistol was just another piece of gear to get a job done when a rifle is simply too much too close. I have begun to rethink this approach in the last 3 years as it becomes clear to me that a pistol in really a tiny rifle capable of some impressive shooting between 0-100 yards.

Here is what I am basing this assumption on. This does not mean you engage targets at extreme ranges...just that it can be done in a pinch if you take your time and do your part...the pistol if well made, will perform it's part adequately.

Some years back...an Air Force Security Forces Member put an end to a BOZO with an AK-47 style rifle at Fairchild AFB at a distance of over 75 yards. He did so from a kneeling position with a Beretta M-9 (92F) using GI ball ammo. In doing so he saved countless lives.

USSOCOM members regularly train with the HK MK23 at distances exceeding 70 yards for eliminating sentries with a suppressed weapon for infiltration purposes.

The German Army used a buttstock with selected Luger pistols to give increased range shootability to an already excellent design.


My challenge to all of you is to try and hit a sheet of typewriter paper at 100 yards in a safe shooting environment. I have found that I can do it 65-70 percent of the time when I take a knee and slow down my breathing. I usually have to aim at the top of the paper and the bullet drops into the bottom 1/4. I am doing this with a stock HK USP45 fullsize. I cannot do this with my Baby Desert Eagle in .40 S&W.

This is no easy feat. I had to teach myself how to do this and I am still working on technique after 2 years of practicing this at least once every time I shoot.

 

[maybejim]

I thought that I read that you could put a stock on a pistol without any legal problems but you couldn't shorten a rifle.

 

[toreskha]

If you've already made the investment of the pistol, then go ahead and get what you need for a modification. It could always come in handy in a SHTF situation. Maybe you don't carry your rifle around in the car every day - but you do carry a stock and barrel for your pistol. There's your donut tire rifle, ready to go.

 

[tattedupboy]

I thought that I read that you could put a stock on a pistol without any legal problems but you couldn't shorten a rifle.

Actually, it works both ways; you can't convert a rifle into a "pistol" and you can't convert a pistol into a "rifle." Strangely enough, though, you can add or take away a stock from a shotgun, but not a rifle. Don't ask me why, but it's the law.

 

[wuzfuz]

A concept

I was under the impression that you could not legally attach a stock to a pistol. The response to this that I have seen is a stock which attaches to the hand that holdsthe pistol. I just recently saw a pistol caliber carbine a the shopp where I bought my XD-45. It was a short carbine that fired the .40 S&W round. I would have loved to have tried that one out. I noticed a tag on the box one was in that stated you had to be aware that htis was a short rifle, and that the ballistics were different from both a pistol or a rifle, and one had to familiarize themselves with it's operation.

 

[boris]

the russkies have used one.

a stechkin{sp?}pistol. except { correct me if i am wrong. } when the stock is attached, it fires in 3 round bursts or like gabe said, leave the stock off and fire normally. i believe it shoots the tokarev round. the friendly folks at the KGB as well as soviet special forces have used them to great effect. i wish i had one. my birthday is in august......:dance3:

 

[HK4U]

a stechkin{sp?}pistol. except { correct me if i am wrong. } when the stock is attached, it fires in 3 round bursts or like gabe said, leave the stock off and fire normally. i believe it shoots the tokarev round. the friendly folks at the KGB as well as soviet special forces have used them to great effect. i wish i had one. my birthday is in august......:dance3:

I don't think the stock would have anything to do with it changing how it fires. As far as I now it only helps to get a more accurate shot at longer distance.

 

[tattedupboy]

a stechkin{sp?}pistol. except { correct me if i am wrong. } when the stock is attached, it fires in 3 round bursts or like gabe said, leave the stock off and fire normally. i believe it shoots the tokarev round. the friendly folks at the KGB as well as soviet special forces have used them to great effect. i wish i had one. my birthday is in august......:dance3:

I'm with HK. How does attaching the stock change the firing mechanism of the gun? I could see if the point of attachment was in some way attached to the internal trigger mechanism, but since it's not, how could this be?

 

[wuzfuz]

A Concept

The VP-70 pistol has a stock that attaches to the grip of the pistol. Therre is a tongue which fits in a slot in the backstrap of the pistol. When the stock is in place, the pistol fires in three-shot bursts. It is not terribly difficult to build a pistol to do this.

 

[chrisko]

I was under the impression that you could not legally attach a stock to a pistol.

if the barrel is under 16 inches long at the time of attaching a stock it is in ATF rules, then it is a SBR (Short Barreled Rifle) regardless of caliber... because it doesn't meet minimum barrel length or overall length that's required by ATF for a rifle (it's a rifle because they classify one as a weapon designed to be fired from the shoulder)...

i was thinking of getting a glock 19 with 33 round mags with a stock and registering it as a SBR... but it doesn't seem to be worth it to me financially...

 

[old dude]

i have had some experance with a uzi in the long barrel semi mode and the full auto open bolt design they both work very well and very accurett comepaired to a pistol, 100 yd shooting with the semi you can put every round inside a 9inch pie plate with open sights as fast as you pull the trigger with little or no recoil because of the weight of the uzi ,shots out to 200yds can be done but the bullets spread out a little more around 12 inches or so, good enought to do the job for defence.open bolt full auto the weight of the heavy bolt comes into play as it slams forward along with the short barrel cuts the accurcey down some but still good enought at 100yds to do the job for defence and hit your target ,full auto in a uzi you can still hold it on your target and empty the whole mag if you wanted to, because of the weight it doesnt climb or become uncontrolable the bullet group just gets a little bigger.they used to make sub machine gun ammo thats much hotter then standard pistol ammo of today used by the military during ww2 and after,makeing the smg a much more powerfull round ,i experamented makeing some and came up with handloads that could excede over 2000 fps in a 16in barrel with a 9mm round with compressed loads makeing it a much better round ,the only thing i dont like besides the weight is the medal folding stock its tough of the cheek for aiming and really cold in cold weather maybe why when they fiirst came out they had wood stocks which would be more confortable to shoot with.dont think a ak has anything over a uzi when it comes to being tough and taking what ever you can throw at it.