1st BAD Open Carry experience

[45pocketpistol]

If you love this country, you would not be shopping at Walmart anyway. I did a research paper on Walmart in college - spent an entire quarter researching them. It is the one company which has caused the most damage to our economy, by far. They are responsible for over 10% of our trade deficit. I understand the convenience factor. I used to live in a small town with few alternatives. Once I learned the truth about Walmart, I started driveing 30 miles to the nearest Target for my groceries.

 

[walt629]

OP... Good job at following up. Glad you got some satisfaction. Sad to hear the little guy got the short end of the stick in this deal. Although I think the T shirt may have set you up for a 'fail'. :biggrin:

On another note, (and not just this thread) why, when we run into a civilian that freaks out because we carry a gun do we automatically label them as a liberal or worse, a libtard. Isn't is just possible that the person doesn't understand the Constitutional Rights we enjoy because they are undereducated about the same or don't share the same outlook on gun ownership? Why do we have to peg someone just because they don't agree with our outlook? Do you know what their political leaning is because of the way you interact with them or where they work?

I mean, okay! If someone comes up to you and starts to deride you about having a gun in public (gasp!) I would tag that individual as a liberal or possibly just an idiot.

But you're in Walmart with a gun on your hip buying ammo and you probably are dealing with an associate that has no understanding or knowledge of firearms. The sacred puppy wrongfully put 2 and 2 together and got the image of the store getting shot up, probably in their mind starting with them.

I see part of our responsibility as gun owners and believers in the Constitution to educate those we run into that are uninformed about the freedom's they enjoy because of the existence of the Constitution as well as our enjoyment of the 2A. Admittedly when you put yourself or find yourself in the middle of a 'freak out' situation, that may not be the right time to try to educate the 'freekee'.

 

[TmT]

Why open carry just because you can? By doing so you lose an edge in defending yourself and others. My state, MT, allows open carry, but I only do so in the back country. I'd rather not advertise my means of defense. Just my opinion. I also agree with 45 - Walmart harms our country's economy, and costs USA jobs. Shop independent, family owned businesses

 

[Treo]

Why open carry just because you can? By doing so you lose an edge in defending yourself and others. My state, MT, allows open carry, but I only do so in the back country. I'd rather not advertise my means of defense. Just my opinion.

And here I thought we were gonna get all the way through the thread w/ out this tripe.

Why open carry just because you can?

I think you misplaced the question mark here, I think it should read

Why open carry? Just because you can.

By doing so you lose an edge in defending yourself and others.

Given that we carry a concealed weapon as a defensive response to an attack that another person decides to make what "edge" are you giving up? Surprise is not a defensive tactic

 

[TmT]

It sounds to me like you are not merely excericing your rights, you are looking for trouble. That's dangerous and iresponsible.

 

[Firefighterchen]

It sounds to me like you are not merely excericing your rights, you are looking for trouble. That's dangerous and iresponsible.

Sounds to me like you want to be a tacticool mall ninja assassin. That's dangerous and irresponsible.

BTW, when open carrying I am avoiding trouble before trouble presents itself. Trouble is always out there, looking for a victim. I'm just glad you decided to look like a victim for me, since I have shown that I will not be a victim. Makes my life much easier knowing there are far more people like you, who are seemingly unarmed and defenseless people to choose from, and willing to pay out all the legal fee's and emotional trauma that comes to your family when you get chosen over me. Sincerely, thank you.

*FYI when I open carry to the grocery store, I am looking for food, not trouble. Do you look for trouble at your grocery store?*

 

[GunClasses.Net]

I had the embarassment to sit in a group once when one told this story. To quote the other guy:

"I will never eat at Denny's again. I probably open-carried too many times there and they put up a sign 'Denny's restraurant bans guns on these premises'. So now I bring in these = no money)). I go to every table and put one in with the salt and pepper shakers. If someone's eating there, I just say 'excuse me' and reach past them to stick it in at their table.'"

Oh. My. Gosh.

Sorry, but we should be positive examples and treat others with the respect we want to be shown. That really just doesn't make us look good. I think this story by "crb" above handled it well; Just go talk to the management, be respectful (in our clothing as well as our demeanor), and set forth thine case. If they balk, politely decline to do business there and peacefully leave. Yep, no reason to give them any ammunition to say "he was just a hotheaded gun nut; glad he left".

I bet my table partner is a real 'treat' at the Christmas dinner table. What does he do when his aunt asks "Can you please not strap that thing on while we eat the turkey dinner, tonight?"... give HER a card that says "No guns = no turkey"? Paaahhlleeeease...!

 

[Standby]

Something you may not Know about Walmart. John Walton (son of the founder or Walmart)

John Walton was a billionaire. But he also followed his passions of building things - motorcycles, airplanes, etc. He built schools and spent millions and millions on educating children. He volunteered for Viet Nam. He could have been an Officer and probably gotten his choice of assignments, but, instead, he served as a Special Forces Medic taking care of his men - putting their lives ahead of his own.

The plane he died flying was an experimental ultralight aircraft with a small, gasoline-powered engine and wings wrapped in fabric similar to heavy-duty sail cloth, officials said.

John was a Green Beret, part of a unit code-named the Studies and Observations Group, or SOG (cover for "special operations group"), a secret, elite military unit whose operatives would be disavowed by the U.S. government if captured. SOG often conducted actions behind enemy lines and in Laos and Cambodia. John joined the unit in 1968, right after the Tet offensive. On almost every mission there was a firefight. A particularly horrifying battle occurred in the A Shau Valley in Laos while he was assigned to a unit named ST (strike team) Louisiana. John was the commando team's No. 2 as well as its medic. One morning ST Louisiana was dropped from helicopters onto a ridge near the DMZ and was attacked by North Vietnamese army soldiers. In a memoir titled Across the Fence: The Secret War in Vietnam, fellow Green Beret John Stryker Meyer gives an account of that day: "Four of the NVAs rounds struck the tail gunner, wounding him severely. As Walton swung his CAR-15 toward the enemy soldier ... [his] rounds hit the NVA soldier and drove him back in the jungle."

The account goes on to say that Walton's commanding officer, Wilbur "Pete" Boggs, called in a napalm strike that landed yards away from John. Soon the six-man team was surrounded. One was dead and three were wounded. John tended to casualties, including Boggs, who was knocked semiconscious by shrapnel, and Tom Cunningham, who was badly hurt. "The knee got blown out and started hemorrhaging very, very severely. John Walton applied a tourniquet to my leg to stop the severe hemorrhaging," recalls Cunningham today. John called in two choppers for extraction. As the first Kingbee dropped in and lifted off with some of the men, the NVA intensified its assault. A second chopper was needed to get all the men out, but the landing zone was too hot to make it in. Walton and his team thought they were doomed, but suddenly the first chopper came back down, even though their added weight might make it too heavy to take off again. With the enemy advancing into the clearing, firing at the helicopter, and Walton trying to keep Cunningham alive, the Kingbee took off and barely made it over the treetops……..

Long story short, he was more than most would know. RIP sir!

 

[Bikenut]

Why open carry just because you can? By doing so you lose an edge in defending yourself and others. My state, MT, allows open carry, but I only do so in the back country. I'd rather not advertise my means of defense. Just my opinion. I also agree with 45 - Walmart harms our country's economy, and costs USA jobs. Shop independent, family owned businesses

You are entitled to your opinion concerning methods of carry... I support that. Yet please allow me to provide some food for thought. And then feel free to tell me to go jump in the lake if you wish... but please consider the following.

A criminal stalking a local parking lot sees an open carrier has a gun and realizes his intended victim will fight back and just might win any confrontation because the victim has a gun to shoot the bad guy with and it is a guaranteed thing the victim has a gun since the criminal can actually see it.... and the criminal decides to pick someone else. So he waits 5 minutes....

And along comes another potential victim and the criminal doesn't see any gun so he attacks. Even though this potential victim was carrying concealed ... he was still attacked because he appeared as defenseless as any other victim.

In the meantime... the open carrier went in the store, bought some stuff, and then went back outside to his car noting that there were a lot of cop cars and an ambulance in the parking lot. .. and then went home. He learned about a shooting in that parking lot on the 6 o'clock news.

But the concealed carrier, who was attacked because he appeared to be a ready made victim, is now contemplating the aftermath of having had to shoot the criminal who attacked him... with all the legal hassle, expense, and the nightmares soon to follow. And he has no need to watch the news because HE IS the news.

Open carry has the ability to prevent an attack simply by the deterrent effect of the criminal seeing the gun. And the open carrier still has the ability to defend after the attack starts. But concealed carry only has the ability to defend after the attack starts.

In my opinion open carry is the method that has the "edge" of being able to prevent an attack that concealed carry does not have.

I'm not trying to say that open carry will always prevent an attack... but I am saying that open carry can prevent an attack because the criminal knows his victim has a gun but concealed carry does not prevent an attack because the criminal does not know there is a gun.

There are other valid reasons besides deterring a criminal for open carry. One of the main reasons I open carry is as a political statement for the government to keep it's hands off the right to bear arms. Another of my reasons is I welcome the opportunity, and there have been many of them, to answer the questions interested people ask about the gun on my hip. For many of those folks it is the first time they find out that open carry is actually legal.

So yes, I open carry because I can. And I open carry because, as a man who believes in the right to bear arms, I should.

Not to mention that a concealed carry "permit" is NOT the right to bear arms but is the very worst sort of infringement since it is "permission" granted by the State.

And the instances of criminals targeting open carriers to get their gun are extremely rare... and that is especially interesting considering open carry has been going on for decades, yes decades, in some States... Arizona comes to mind.

 

[TmT]

Your points are good ones Bikenut. I can't disagree with a single one of your statements. I also agree with your reason to carry open being a political statement. I do however feel that there is a small percentage of open carriers who may go over the top to make that statement. A visible weapon should in itself serve to make the point. And with that visible weapon, comes the responsibility of representing all of us in a good light. Thanks for your contribution.

 

[Standby]

Bikenut. I see you point. But your using "normal man reasoning" that just does not apply to the vermin that stalk our streets. Yes could it stop a "would be" criminal...maybe, but will it stop a hardend bad guy?...NOPE

So in responce to your scenario, here is another. Bad guy sees you. He sees you get out of you new Mercedes, he notices your fine rolex watch, then he sees your highly customised 1911 on your hip.....you know what he thinks...

"Check that out, I'm gona git me a fat wallet, a fine watch and a pretty new gun"

Bad guy is not going to walk up to you and hold you up, he is a criminal not a moron. He is going to wait until you come back to your car, approuch you from the rear, shoot you in the back of the head, take your stuff and drive away with a new story to tell his buddy's. Your never going to have the chance to use your gun.

For ever possible benifit of open carry there is an negative, for every ying there is a yang.

I personally prefer NOT to telegraph my defensive systems. If I am going to punch you in the face, I am not going to tell you first and if I am going to shoot you.....you will find out when I draw, not befor....

To each his own.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Bikenut. I see you point. But your using "normal man reasoning" that just does not apply to the vermin that stalk our streets. Yes could it stop a "would be" criminal...maybe, but will it stop a hardend bad guy?...NOPE

So in responce to your scenario, here is another. Bad guy sees you. He sees you get out of you new Mercedes, he notices your fine rolex watch, then he sees your highly customised 1911 on your hip.....you know what he thinks...

"Check that out, I'm gona git me a fat wallet, a fine watch and a pretty new gun"

Bad guy is not going to walk up to you and hold you up, he is a criminal not a moron. He is going to wait until you come back to your car, approuch you from the rear, shoot you in the back of the head, take your stuff and drive away with a new story to tell his buddy's. Your never going to have the chance to use your gun.

For ever possible benifit of open carry there is an negative, for every ying there is a yang.

I personally prefer NOT to telegraph my defensive systems. If I am going to punch you in the face, I am not going to tell you first and if I am going to shoot you.....you will find out when I draw, not befor....

To each his own.

There is a reason a hardened criminal is hardened. He doesn't make stupid decisions. So, will it stop a hardened criminal? YES.

Let me ask you this, would concealing your firearm have changed anything in the scenario you played out?

Bad guy see's your Mercedes, $10k rolex (not sure why someone wants to wear that...but to each his own). Do you think he is going to ask you for the rolex, your fat wallet, or your car keys if he doesn't know you are carrying? Nope! He is going to shoot the concealed carrier in the back of the head too. That is the scenario that a hardened criminal chooses, because he is smart in his decisions of victims.

The scenario you played out has problems far beyond open or concealing. It's parking a Mercedes in a spot that is easy to be approached by surprise. The carrier is wearing and flashing jewelry far too expensive. The biggest problem of all though, is the lack of awareness by the carrier.

I will ask again, will concealing have changed anything in the scenario you played out? NOPE.

The only benefit that concealed carrying gives you (not being hassled as much) always comes with compensating with a disadvantage (comfort, speed, firepower, etc).

 

[Bikenut]

Your points are good ones Bikenut. I can't disagree with a single one of your statements. I also agree with your reason to carry open being a political statement. I do however feel that there is a small percentage of open carriers who may go over the top to make that statement. A visible weapon should in itself serve to make the point. And with that visible weapon, comes the responsibility of representing all of us in a good light. Thanks for your contribution.

Thank you for taking my post in the manner it was intended.

I agree there are a few .. ummm... I'll be nice and call them.. open carry "dolts"... who are using open carry as an ego thing and to strut around posturing as a bad arse. But then... there are some concealed carriers who slink around just hoping to have the opportunity to whip out their concealed gun and open a can of super secret ninja "element of surprise" all over some bad guy and emerge the hero.

My point is there will always be... umm... "dolts" in everything. Thankfully the number of "dolts" in both CC and OC are far outnumbered by the honorable folks.

Yet should we not OC just because there are "dolts"? Would that eliminate the "dolts"? Or would it be better to counter the effects of the "dolts" with a greater number of folks doing it the right way? And the very same thing can be said for CC too....

 

[Bikenut]

Bikenut. I see you point. But your using "normal man reasoning" that just does not apply to the vermin that stalk our streets. Yes could it stop a "would be" criminal...maybe, but will it stop a hardend bad guy?...NOPE

So in responce to your scenario, here is another. Bad guy sees you. He sees you get out of you new Mercedes, he notices your fine rolex watch, then he sees your highly customised 1911 on your hip.....you know what he thinks...

"Check that out, I'm gona git me a fat wallet, a fine watch and a pretty new gun"

Bad guy is not going to walk up to you and hold you up, he is a criminal not a moron. He is going to wait until you come back to your car, approuch you from the rear, shoot you in the back of the head, take your stuff and drive away with a new story to tell his buddy's. Your never going to have the chance to use your gun.

For ever possible benifit of open carry there is an negative, for every ying there is a yang.

I personally prefer NOT to telegraph my defensive systems. If I am going to punch you in the face, I am not going to tell you first and if I am going to shoot you.....you will find out when I draw, not befor....

To each his own.

So let me ask....

How many actual incidents have their been where a criminal attacked an open carrier? Since open carry has been practiced by a goodly number of folks in Arizona for decades... yeah, decades... there should be a plethora of incidents. Please bear in mind any incidents need to be balanced against those decades of open carry to present a truthful picture of just how many hardened criminals attack open carriers.

Once a hardened criminal chooses his victim neither open carry nor concealed carry is going to stop him from attacking. So neither open carry nor concealed carry is going to help prevent the attack... yet whether OC or CC the victim still has a gun to use against the criminal after the attack starts.

Open carry can deter the not so determined criminal. An attack that OC prevented is an attack that didn't have to be responded to. And if my sidearm in plain sight stopped someone from attacking me and I get to finish my day without having to shoot someone in self defense... I consider that a very good thing!!!

But for the less than hardened criminal a person CC'ing looks just like all the other defenseless possible victims... and CC does nothing to prevent the attack from starting. And once the attack starts then it must be responded to and instead of going home like usual my whole life just changed. And that would NOT be a good thing!!!

I guess I don't see how the fact that OC won't stop a hardened criminal should be a consideration for not OC'ing when CC won't stop the hardened criminal either.

But I do agree that the choice of carry manner is a personal one dependent on the factors and variables operative in the individual's life.

 

[johnmed3]

Personally I think my 3 stooges shirt with Obama, Pelosi, and Reed didn't help. My guess is I hurt her(automotive associate) liberal feelings.

^^^I think you may be onto something.^^^

Were did you get that T-shirt. I want one

 

[NavyLCDR]

Bikenut, Firefighterchen,

Don't you know that the warm fuzzy feeling of possessing the invisible protective talisman that no one else knows about is much easier to sell than logic?

 

[Firefighterchen]

So let me ask....

How many actual incidents have their been where a criminal attacked an open carrier? Since open carry has been practiced by a goodly number of folks in Arizona for decades... yeah, decades... there should be a plethora of incidents. Please bear in mind any incidents need to be balanced against those decades of open carry to present a truthful picture of just how many hardened criminals attack open carriers.

Whoever feels like looking that up, look up how many concealed carriers get chosen by hardened and soft criminals while you're at it.

Seems it occurs a few times on a weekly basis, if not daily basis, that a cc'er gets chosen.

 

[mappow]

Per the Op, I did not read where he stated to Wal-Mart staff that per State Law, I am legally allowed to OC without a permit unless the business has plainly posted a NO WEAPONS ALLOWED or what ever the State requirements are. Quoting the Constitution would IMHO be almost belligerent in this case. I would have asked the staff if this store has a posted sign. IF NOT, I can OC.

 

[leadsender]

Sometimes we need to pick and choose our battles. Why open yourself up to a bunch of needless drama when you don't have to. Michigan is an open carry state and I know that as you know that your state is open carry. So, why not simply reply with your response to her question. Yes, I do have a permit and leave it a that.

 

[leadsender]

Well said. It is a very big mistake to make those assumptions.