NY Niagara Falls Trip

[cs001x]

I'm from Texas and have a CHL. I've had it long enough and carry so often that it no longer makes me nervous just to have my S&W M&P Shield 9mm on me, so I don't worry much about keeping it in my vehicle or in the RV on trips. So, when we planned our trip to Niagara Falls I really didn't bother researching much about carrying it in my truck. We were also going to the Canadian side of Niagara, and I didn't bother to read up on any guns laws in NY or Canada. Why? I believe it's a right given to me by our constitution to have a weapon, maybe I'm stubborn, and maybe I'm a little lazy too. Either way, didn't bother. Being truthful here, in the spirit of openness.

We get to the Canadian boarder in the morning, there's a sign that says I have to declare weapons, my only thought was about the movie "Kid Cannabis (2014)" and how they always got checked at the boarder, figured it was smarter to declare than hide it. When the officer asks me if I have protection I say yes. He has me pull over, officers come out and they retrieve the weapon, unload it, and have me fill out some paperwork, and tell me the NY officers will give it back once I leave Canada. They were super cool about it, no big deal. We cracked a few jokes and I went on my way and had a great time in Canada. Same thing when I was leaving, jokes and coolness, they retrieved the weapon from their safe, put it in the bed of my truck in a lock box, and told me to have NY side open it and give it back to me. Took about 30min both ways in and out of Canada.

When I get to the other side of the boarder, the NY officers were a little more stern in their questioning about my presence and purpose, but seemed cool and asked me to pull into their little parking area and go inside the longer building, and that they'd retrieve the weapon. I didn't think much of it, was super polite, and complied. My wife, kid, and niece went inside and sat with me. An officer comes out and starts off with "the reason the Canadians turned you around was", I immediately cut him off. I said "No sir, they let me in and we had a great time in their country, and said ya'll would give it back once I left Canada". He kinda stumbled on his words for a second and then asks me a few simple questions like the gate officer did but also says I'm supposed to have a permit in NY, but that they'll put my weapon and it's clip back in my console and send me on my way. Also said if I get stopped by an officer to give them my CHL and say nothing else, was kinda weird how he said that and didn't finish the sentence but I said "yes sir", gave him my keys, and after 20min or so they had put my weapon in my vehicle and sent me on my way. It was a little too much trouble for day #2 to take the weapon through the check points again, so I left it in the RV. Neither side questioned me to or from Canada if I had a weapon on the subsequent days, figured they might of had notes or something but nope, nada.

I was talking with one of my clients who's a big gun guy, he said I should be in jail right now and got super lucky. So now I'm here, and read about all these posts saying how illegal it is and that it's a bad idea. Well? Did I get lucky? Or, being a very polite and calm person with a Texas CHL have anything to do with it? I also keep a USMC KA-BAR knife sheathed right next to the weapon in my console, maybe that helped? Curious to see what you guys think I got away with, if anything.

 

[Throttleup]

You were unbelievably lucky. The mere possession of an unregistered handgun in the State of New York is a felony. The fact that they let you keep your weapon and continue on your way into New York borders on the "once in a lifetime". I suggest you never try that again. By the way, could you pick a lottery number for me?

 

[BluesStringer]

NY has no reciprocity with any state, D.C. or territory, so you having a TX CHL had no bearing on your extremely hard-to-believe experience at all.

There are people doing hard time right this second for violating NY gun laws in similar ways as you describe, though the one that gets the most attention happened in NY City, and that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish that I presume you didn't run afoul of while visiting the state.

You got away with a felony, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that you got away with something by showing up at the Canadian border armed also. On the NY side, you could've just as easily been proned out, searched, arrested and charged with that felony, all in front of the family you mentioned who accompanied you. More than "just as easily," it's a miracle that it didn't go down like that, but if it had, you'd have no one to blame but yourself for failing to research the laws that you so cavalierly dismiss above as you just being "stubborn" and/or "lazy." Just because you didn't get caught doesn't mean that you're not now a stubborn, lazy felon. Your heart should be pounding out of your chest over the ruination of your and your family's lives that you inexplicably avoided.

Blues

 

[XD40scinNC]

First thing you need to clearly understand, the US Constitution does not apply in any way in Canada..... DUH! It is a different country, and you can't take the constitutions rights with you.... though that concept does seem to elude many that travel out of country.

Second since you have a permit and carry, it is YOUR responsibility to know the laws where ever you travel in the US, just like you need to know and follow Texas carry laws.

Which brings point #3, much of the Constitution does not apply in liberal states like NY, NJ, MD, CT, CA to name a few.

 

[driz]

I'm from Texas and have a CHL. I've had it long enough and carry so often that it no longer makes me nervous just to have my S&W M&P Shield 9mm on me, so I don't worry much about keeping it in my vehicle or in the RV on trips. So, when we planned our trip to Niagara Falls I really didn't bother researching much about carrying it in my truck. We were also going to the Canadian side of Niagara, and I didn't bother to read up on any guns laws in NY or Canada. Why? I believe it's a right given to me by our constitution to have a weapon, maybe I'm stubborn, and maybe I'm a little lazy too. Either way, didn't bother. Being truthful here, in the spirit of openness.

We get to the Canadian boarder in the morning, there's a sign that says I have to declare weapons, my only thought was about the movie "Kid Cannabis (2014)" and how they always got checked at the boarder, figured it was smarter to declare than hide it. When the officer asks me if I have protection I say yes. He has me pull over, officers come out and they retrieve the weapon, unload it, and have me fill out some paperwork, and tell me the NY officers will give it back once I leave Canada. They were super cool about it, no big deal. We cracked a few jokes and I went on my way and had a great time in Canada. Same thing when I was leaving, jokes and coolness, they retrieved the weapon from their safe, put it in the bed of my truck in a lock box, and told me to have NY side open it and give it back to me. Took about 30min both ways in and out of Canada.

When I get to the other side of the boarder, the NY officers were a little more stern in their questioning about my presence and purpose, but seemed cool and asked me to pull into their little parking area and go inside the longer building, and that they'd retrieve the weapon. I didn't think much of it, was super polite, and complied. My wife, kid, and niece went inside and sat with me. An officer comes out and starts off with "the reason the Canadians turned you around was", I immediately cut him off. I said "No sir, they let me in and we had a great time in their country, and said ya'll would give it back once I left Canada". He kinda stumbled on his words for a second and then asks me a few simple questions like the gate officer did but also says I'm supposed to have a permit in NY, but that they'll put my weapon and it's clip back in my console and send me on my way. Also said if I get stopped by an officer to give them my CHL and say nothing else, was kinda weird how he said that and didn't finish the sentence but I said "yes sir", gave him my keys, and after 20min or so they had put my weapon in my vehicle and sent me on my way. It was a little too much trouble for day #2 to take the weapon through the check points again, so I left it in the RV. Neither side questioned me to or from Canada if I had a weapon on the subsequent days, figured they might of had notes or something but nope, nada.

I was talking with one of my clients who's a big gun guy, he said I should be in jail right now and got super lucky. So now I'm here, and read about all these posts saying how illegal it is and that it's a bad idea. Well? Did I get lucky? Or, being a very polite and calm person with a Texas CHL have anything to do with it? I also keep a USMC KA-BAR knife sheathed right next to the weapon in my console, maybe that helped? Curious to see what you guys think I got away with, if anything.

I have to say they took mercy on you on both sides of the border to say the least. It's been years since I took any handguns off anybody entering the US and it was all before Emperor Mario Lite's Safe Act. Every one of them but one lost his gun. We took it and signed it over to the NYSP who confiscated it and declined arrest. We did get a couple guys who were security agents and got the free pass due to their duties although by NY standards it's not legal.
I did get a guy one middle of the night who I asked if he had any weapons as he was from Florida which always raised suspicions. The guy straight up told me he had his pistol locked in the trunk just like his buddy the FL Highway Patrolman told him was legal anywhere. I told him that his buddy was full of **** on all accounts and that if they had asked him in Quebec if he had one he would be likely in jail in a world of crap. While I escorted him in to check out his stuff I casually ask him if he had ever been arrested . That's when he tells me he killed some puke who tried to rob him in Jacksonville but the charges got dropped eventually. Ah well it was all true and he gave up his gun and continued on home to Florida an hour later.
Anyways that was in the early 2000's. Today at the border EVERYTHING is official. There are managers everyplace following everybody around just looking to burn these guys and somebody driving up like you might just as easily be an internal affairs agent and the officers damned well know this. Welcome to the post 911 border, not a nice place at all. Now do you see how lucky you were these guys just let you go? As for your constitutional rights in Canada, please. When you are up there there is no constitution and it's not a point you ever want to argue up there. Best advice is keep all guns out of Canada and carry a shotgun on your US travels if you are going into non reciprocating states especially NY and MASS.

 

[NavyLCDR]

As for your constitutional rights in Canada, please. When you are up there there is no constitution and it's not a point you ever want to argue up there. Best advice is keep all guns out of Canada and carry a shotgun on your US travels if you are going into non reciprocating states especially NY and MASS.

The Constitution ends well before the Canadian border. It ends at New York state's borders.

 

[XD40scinNC]

The Constitution ends well before the Canadian border. It ends at New York state's borders.

Depends where you start from. Being in NC, I view the end of Constitutional rights as ending at the Maryland or DC border depending on which route you take.

 

[BluesStringer]

Depends where you start from. Being in NC, I view the end of Constitutional rights as ending at the Maryland or DC border depending on which route you take.

I wish there were legal .orgs from the right writing about this, and then I wouldn't be forced to use the ACLU as a source, but the plain fact is that, when it comes to searches, there is very nearly a "Constitution-free" zone everywhere within 100 miles of any border (or "functional equivalent") of the United States. All of HI, FL, VT and ME, most of New England, including NY and MA, 100 miles from ocean shores for the entire beachfront of all US states and territories fall within that 100 mile Constitution-free zone. All international airports fall within it too, whether more than 100 miles from the border or not. Whether from the deservedly-distrusted ACLU or not, this is a fairly well-established point of law that no one to my knowledge has successfully argued that it's phonied-up conspiracy theory kinda stuff. Here's a graphic that the ACLU created and has been spread around since at least 2008:

 

[driz]

That looks like something the ACLU would dream up in their fantasy world. It's wrong to the point of being absurd! This is what it really is and I should know. It's called Nexus To The Border, the area where all persons and things are subject to search / seizure . Here is the rest they conveniently leave out to promote their nonsense. The state and local cops can't stop you and just search you just being there. They can do the same things they do elsewhere though and if their dog is digging at the car you got problems.
Anywhere along these areas border patrol drives looking for violators of customs and immigration laws. They can pull folks over for "mere suspicion" . That's the words used. Some sort of articulable thing they saw to give them reason to believe a violation of ins or customs law. There also has to be reasonable belief that said car people ect could have crossed or plan on crossing that border either way. That's the crux of it all and it better be there or it's an illegal search. Something like an out of state plated car being driven by a South American way up in the north country. That sort of thing just as an example. Why would he be way up there normally? Now naturally there is a loose definition here and it has to be that way by the nature of the places and job. Still management hammers these guys at school and afterwards to do it right as that zone has been challenged in court before and no one wants some idiot ruining our ability to keep foreign problems out of the country.
So that's how it works I. The real world. BP can't yank you over just to check your tires or any silly thing like that and all other constitutional rights are the same as anywhere else. That's a far cry from what the all knowing ACLU promotes. Sorry if I rained on anyone's parade.


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[BluesStringer]

That looks like something the ACLU would dream up in their fantasy world. It's wrong to the point of being absurd! This is what it really is and I should know. It's called Nexus To The Border, the area where all persons and things are subject to search / seizure . Here is the rest they conveniently leave out to promote their nonsense. The state and local cops can't stop you and just search you just being there. They can do the same things they do elsewhere though and if their dog is digging at the car you got problems.
Anywhere along these areas border patrol drives looking for violators of customs and immigration laws. They can pull folks over for "mere suspicion" . That's the words used. Some sort of articulable thing they saw to give them reason to believe a violation of ins or customs law. There also has to be reasonable belief that said car people ect could have crossed or plan on crossing that border either way. That's the crux of it all and it better be there or it's an illegal search. Something like an out of state plated car being driven by a South American way up in the north country. That sort of thing just as an example. Why would he be way up there normally? Now naturally there is a loose definition here and it has to be that way by the nature of the places and job. Still management hammers these guys at school and afterwards to do it right as that zone has been challenged in court before and no one wants some idiot ruining our ability to keep foreign problems out of the country.
So that's how it works I. The real world. BP can't yank you over just to check your tires or any silly thing like that and all other constitutional rights are the same as anywhere else. That's a far cry from what the all knowing ACLU promotes. Sorry if I rained on anyone's parade.


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The "border" search zone is 100 miles wide, which encompasses a few entire states, and most of several more.

The Constitution wasn't written to make your job easier. It was written to protect The People from abuses by government, including cops, maybe even especially cops, just exactly like the type being discussed here. A 100 mile "border" zone where mere suspicion can force a contact by a government agent on perfectly innocent people is indeed a Constitution free zone. Not sorry at all to expose the statist lie to the contrary as-stated above.

Blues

 

[driz]

Sure Blues . Keep telling yourself that. Guys like you unknowingly are the best friends Billary and company ever had. You make their point perfectly for them . No law which you don't personally approve of is legal because you say so. Oh well .
You know something funny. In all the years I must have met a couple dozen guys like you . Get right in my face telling me I can't touch their stuff all ready to fight to prove it. In the end not one ever did go for it which was a smart move on their part. The weirdest part was that not a one of them had so much as a joint in his pocket, nothing at all and ended up going their way afterwards. Priceless......This is my last word on any of it, you can argue with yourself.


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[mikestone967]

Sure Blues . Keep telling yourself that. Guys like you unknowingly are the best friends Billary and company ever had. You make their point perfectly for them . No law which you don't personally approve of is legal because you say so. Oh well .
You know something funny. In all the years I must have met a couple dozen guys like you . Get right in my face telling me I can't touch their stuff all ready to fight to prove it. In the end not one ever did go for it which was a smart move on their part. The weirdest part was that not a one of them had so much as a joint in his pocket, nothing at all and ended up going their way afterwards. Priceless......This is my last word on any of it, you can argue with yourself.


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[BluesStringer]

Ditto.

 

[BIGJOHN621]

I know this thred has some age but I must comment.

This story doesn't work for me. Sorry. There isn't even a remote possibility that a NYS Trooper would return a gun to you without a permit or other exemption. If he/she did so, that officer would be committing a felony themselves and fave departmental charges and/or criminal arrest.

Secondly, if you were covered by the FOPA, the firearm would have to be in a locked container unloaded, not just put in the console of your vehicle.

Is there something I am missing?

You are talking about the state (NY) that refused to honor HR 218 (LEOSA) until made to do so by the courts and arrested several out of state LEOs before this happened.

You are also talking about the state that frequently disregards the FOPA when a handgun is transported through the state by non residents and effects an arrest anyway.

With the circumstances you describe, you wouldn't be covered by the FOPA, it appears that you aren't covered by HR 218 and are in clear violation of NYS PL 400, without exemption.

Telling this story is dangerous as it may prompt others to take reckless chances with a firearm in NYS. This will wind you up in serious trouble.

 

[bofh]

Is there something I am missing?

Yes, the OP is pure BS. It is the one and only post by this member in this forum, posted one day after he joined the forum. This member has not contributed anything else to this forum other than this apparently made up story. For starters, New York State Police does not operate border checkpoints. Instead, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) operates such checkpoints, including the one at Link Removed.

 

[Dekul34]

Yes, the OP is pure BS. It is the one and only post by this member in this forum, posted one day after he joined the forum. This member has not contributed anything else to this forum other than this apparently made up story. For starters, New York State Police does not operate border checkpoints. Instead, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) operates such checkpoints, including the one at Link Removed.

Indeed, which is probably why he wasn't arrested for a felony, as he broke no federal law by possessing the firearm and it was actually a US agent rather than a NY state officer. Also, since it was the Canadian border agent who removed the firearm from the vehicle, unloaded it, and transferred it to the US agent, they likely wouldn't have been able to prove whether or not it was transported in accordance with federal law regarding interstate transport of firearms or not.

 

[bofh]

Indeed, which is probably why he wasn't arrested for a felony, as he broke no federal law by possessing the firearm and it was actually a US agent rather than a NY state officer. Also, since it was the Canadian border agent who removed the firearm from the vehicle, unloaded it, and transferred it to the US agent, they likely wouldn't have been able to prove whether or not it was transported in accordance with federal law regarding interstate transport of firearms or not.

Expect to get detained when you show up at the Canadian border with a handgun and without the proper Canadian paperwork. Your handgun will likely get seized. If you declared the handgun immediately, you will be likely only fined and turned around immediately. If you didn't declare the handgun, you could face jail. Handguns are a restricted class of firearms in Canada and importation by visitors is rarely permitted.

You will certainly not receive the handgun back using the process you describe. Why? Once you are at a Canadian border checkpoint, you already entered Canada and therefore exported a firearm according to US law and imported a firearm according to Canadian law. The the Canadian Border Services Agency (CBSA) and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) are not in the business of re-importing firearms by handing them over to US Customs and Border Patrol (CBP). Re-importing firearms is solely the responsibility of the individual transporting the firearms, which also requires some customs paperwork.

Read more here:

• CBSA | Import and Export a Firearm or Weapon into Canada:
  

  If you have declared a firearm but cannot meet the import requirements, or you do not have the proper documents, the border services officer, at his or her discretion, may allow you to export the firearm from Canada. Alternatively, the border services officer may detain the firearm, issue you a receipt and allow you a reasonable amount of time to present the correct documents to the CBSA.
  
  If you have not been truthful, or if the officer believes that you should not bring the firearm into Canada, the CBSA can detain it. If you did not declare the firearm, the CBSA will seize it, and you may face criminal charges.

• RCMP | Firearm Users Visiting Canada
• Link Removed
• Link Removed
• B.C. land border crossings register 116% spike in firearm seizures: CBSA
• Case against U.S. man illustrates Canada's zero-tolerance gun policy

The OP has conflicting language about the details:

We get to the Canadian boarder in the morning, there's a sign that says I have to declare weapons, my only thought was about the movie "Kid Cannabis (2014)" and how they always got checked at the boarder, figured it was smarter to declare than hide it. When the officer asks me if I have protection I say yes. He has me pull over, officers come out and they retrieve the weapon, unload it, and have me fill out some paperwork, and tell me the NY officers will give it back once I leave Canada. They were super cool about it, no big deal. We cracked a few jokes and I went on my way and had a great time in Canada. Same thing when I was leaving, jokes and coolness, they retrieved the weapon from their safe, put it in the bed of my truck in a lock box, and told me to have NY side open it and give it back to me. Took about 30min both ways in and out of Canada.

So, who exactly returned the handgun? NY officers (whatever that means) or CBSA agents? The only thing I can read from this is that CBSA agents seized the firearm upon entering, then returned it upon leaving with the instructions to do the importation paperwork with US CBP.

After doing much reading up on this topic, assuming some details, and editing this post a number of times, I have come to the conclusion that the OP is plausible.

 

[cs001x]

Of course it's plausible. Canadian officers locked it in a box, put it in the bed of my truck, and I drove across the boarder after having a super fun day in Canada. The officers on the NY side retrieved it from my truck bed, unlocked it, and put it back in my center console after their mini interrogation.

Ok, I might have played a little dumb in the OP, no **** my US rights don't afford me the same in Canada, no **** gun laws in boarder states are boarderline unconsititutional, no **** my CHL doesn't apply in NY, I mostly played dumb to troll a little. I got what I wanted, to see how fanatical and unconditionally retarted some people are about gun rights. Thank you so much for giving me that. Significant intelligence isn't always obvious ya know. I kinda just wanted to see what would happen, little flirtation with the unknown maybe? Either way, I got away with it. 'Merica at its finest. Honest to god everything I said was true, I might have trolled about my ignorance but everything that happened was simple fact and I told it exactly how it played out.

Carry on, 6 months of entertainment in this thread and counting.

 

[bofh]

Of course it's plausible. Canadian officers locked it in a box, put it in the bed of my truck, and I drove across the boarder after having a super fun day in Canada. The officers on the NY side retrieved it from my truck bed, unlocked it, and put it back in my center console after their mini interrogation.

Sorry, but after this post, your OP goes back to BS status. You did not mention any paperwork you had to sign when coming back to the US. Also, see my reply below.

Ok, I might have played a little dumb in the OP, no **** my US rights don't afford me the same in Canada, no **** gun laws in boarder states are boarderline unconsititutional, no **** my CHL doesn't apply in NY, I mostly played dumb to troll a little. I got what I wanted, to see how fanatical and unconditionally retarted some people are about gun rights. Thank you so much for giving me that. Significant intelligence isn't always obvious ya know. I kinda just wanted to see what would happen, little flirtation with the unknown maybe? Either way, I got away with it. 'Merica at its finest. Honest to god everything I said was true, I might have trolled about my ignorance but everything that happened was simple fact and I told it exactly how it played out.

Carry on, 6 months of entertainment in this thread and counting.

Not sure what you tried to accomplish with this post, other than to devalue your own credibility.

FYI: The supposed advise you got from a US CBP agent 'to give a police officer your CHL and say nothing else when stopped in NYS' is, quite frankly, outright stupid. The agent basically told you how to get properly arrested. I guess you just didn't get that.

 

[driz]

Indeed, which is probably why he wasn't arrested for a felony, as he broke no federal law by possessing the firearm and it was actually a US agent rather than a NY state officer. Also, since it was the Canadian border agent who removed the firearm from the vehicle, unloaded it, and transferred it to the US agent, they likely wouldn't have been able to prove whether or not it was transported in accordance with federal law regarding interstate transport of firearms or not.

I said I wasn't going back into this but let me clarify once more this single fact I know. Yes CBP can and will relieve you of any pistol taken off you and hold it while notifying NYSP. Yes they NYS will come up there and take it. From what I saw and remember this was prior to our wonderful Cuomo Safe Act then interviewing the guy, doing a background check and then either letting them go or not having signed the gun over for destruction. We used to do similar for many things not dope related. Just take it on a voluntary surrender form and let the guy go. I once saw a puke I took a double edged knife from argue with NYSP over giving up his knife. He got offered a 4th Degree Felony to keep it and soon changed his mind. Also to consider while we usually (most of us) ignored mundane things like this that this guy was a raging ******* through and through. All these things have changed to some extent and I am fairly sure it's the same for NYSP.
Nobody is freely allowed to think anymore and they (management) back it up with all sorts of punitive measures.. To make it worse they have these Red Teams, internal affairs agents who try to sneak in with anything from guns to nuclear material just to see what happens and how everyone reacts. They don't do the neutron radiation game much as the protocol is being drawn down on then and there no matter what the circumstances (their stupid rules, not my idea) .I guess they dont like guns looking at them anymore than you do and believe me CBP all have one in the pipe and no safety to deal with. These things probably are the main reason nobody gets cut any slack no matter what. Myself and everybody else used to let everybody go who went to Canada for prescription drugs as they were cheap compared to being robbed in the US. Now days you surely can't even count on that though they will only take them and stick your name in the computer and you will get checked thereafter almost surely.
So if the CBP officer let you go he took a bit of a chance, maybe the cops were to busy doing real things ect and gave the OP a quiet pass, no more no less. Whatever you told them you must have been convincing enough that they took mercy on you. That's about it be thankful.
As for somebody elses comment about declaring a gun or anything else to any cop here is a tip from a guy who picked up a fair share of fools dumb enough to say things. SHUT UP. Unless you are in Alaska you don't have to tell anybody anything . People are their own worst enemies and say far more than they should almost always. If you get yanked over don't volunteer anything. Don't be evasive just answer what they may ask. At customs we could question you forever but other cops can't do it to that extent without Probable Cause. That's all subjective though and many stretch it. Having a car plastered with "from my cold dead hands and NRA" stickers is another surefire give away and believe me they all look for them. Its also an advertisement to thieves. Believe me the criminals know far better though it's usually their appearance that gives them away equally as well.