The Open Carry Argument

[Big Gay Al]

Actually, I'll have to track down the link again, but I did cross a story where a gun who was carrying openly was targeted and his gun was stolen from him right out of his holster.
Had the gun been concealed the bad guy wouldnt have known it was there.
I'll try to find the story again and post it when I do.

I know the story, NavyLT has provided a link for. The problem is, it happened in Wisconsin. They don't allow concealed carry there at all.

I also have to add, there is some skepticism in certain circles that the event may have been "staged," as they are trying to push for a concealed carry law. And at the time, the democratic governor and others had said "they don't need concealed carry, since they can carry openly."

They have a Republican in office now, and control of both houses, so maybe they'll get a concealed carry law passed this time. Assuming they can get the democratic lawmakers to return and iron out the rest of their legislative problems. :wink:

 

[Big Gay Al]

I heard you that you are soon to be NavyLTCMDR, or however O4 is abreviated.

Somehow, I don't think he's gonna change his handle. :wink: Unless the forum owner lets him. :biggrin:

 

[NavyLCDR]

Somehow, I don't think he's gonna change his handle. :wink: Unless the forum owner lets him. :biggrin:

But it will be in my signature line! I've been selected for LCDR (Lieutenant Commander). It's just a matter of Congress freeing up money in the budget for the actual promotion and pay raise. Supposedly June 1, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Nightmare45]

Say what you want but federal gun free zones are "federal" and LEO's from out of state are subject to the LAW, don't agree with it, but if you are going to enforce the LAW on Law abiding citizens then why not on LEO's, fairness doctrine>

 

[Big Gay Al]

Say what you want but federal gun free zones are "federal" and LEO's from out of state are subject to the LAW, don't agree with it, but if you are going to enforce the LAW on Law abiding citizens then why not on LEO's, fairness doctrine>

I think this GFZ needs a real challenge. I just wish I had the money to do it.

 

[Nightmare45]

I think this GFZ needs a real challenge. I just wish I had the money to do it.

Agreed.

 

[Dragonbreath]

A well-written and well thought-out argument in favor of open carry, with very valid points as to deterrence of crime. In replying to another forum thread about concealed carry, I learned something about myself - I've got some serious passive-aggressive issues. I (currently) HAVE to carry concealed and cannot carry openly (in Florida). I was advocating "deep concealment" with no "printing", and I learned that my own reasoning for that is that I would like to surprise, ambush, and preferably kill, lawbreakers who want to prey on me or my family, or other honest people. I would PREFER not to simply deter them, which means sending them down the road to prey on others - I want them GONE and I'm willing to take the risk that it might be me instead. I was a little surprised by that insight, but I have to own up to it. I think that may be the real argument for concealed carry instead of open carry - to kill lawbreakers instead of deterring them. It puts law-abiding citizens at risk, but when has that ever been NOT true? So getting a concealed carry permit is simply acknowledging the truth that, in the end, WE THE PEOPLE are ALWAYS responsible for our own protection. The buck stops with us!

 

[NavyLCDR]

Thank you for an honest evaluation, Dragonbreath. If I might add something...

My goal is to keep myself and my family as safe as possible. If I successfully defend myself against a criminal by shooting them, what effect does that have on me and my family? If they were present, they have now gone through the trauma of being attacked in the first place. Then they go through the trauma of seeing me shoot another person, and possibly that person dying. Then we go through the legal system. Just because the shooting was justified does not mean the family of the criminal won't be suing in court. It may bankrupt me just to successfully defend against a civil suit. Not to mention if there is an anti-gun DA who might file charges against me anyway.

Now, if I can deter that criminal - the family and myself go through no trauma and no legal hassle. Is it REALLY worth it to place my family at increased risk of having to go through the defensive shooting just so that I can possibly prevent that criminal from moving past me and attacking the next victim?

 

[Dragonbreath]

Thank you for an honest evaluation, Dragonbreath. If I might add something...

My goal is to keep myself and my family as safe as possible. If I successfully defend myself against a criminal by shooting them, what effect does that have on me and my family? If they were present, they have now gone through the trauma of being attacked in the first place. Then they go through the trauma of seeing me shoot another person, and possibly that person dying. Then we go through the legal system. Just because the shooting was justified does not mean the family of the criminal won't be suing in court. It may bankrupt me just to successfully defend against a civil suit. Not to mention if there is an anti-gun DA who might file charges against me anyway.

Now, if I can deter that criminal - the family and myself go through no trauma and no legal hassle. Is it REALLY worth it to place my family at increased risk of having to go through the defensive shooting just so that I can possibly prevent that criminal from moving past me and attacking the next victim?

Excellent points to go into the column of problems caused by concealed carry, but which would not happen under legalized open carry. Unfortunately, current concealed carry laws are not only restrictive "going in", but also allow the DAs, judges, and juries to play Monday morning quarterback and second guess anything a CCW holder does. The current concealed carry laws (at least here in Florida) allow a civil court case to bankrupt a CCW holder who was adjudged as completely justified in shooting a person who was a clear and imminent threat to others' lives. Our system of justice is preferable to most others, but that doesn't mean it's always just.

 

[logical Larry]

My 18 year old son open carries everwhere, be in store, movie or bank. In Indiana the only places you can not carry would be schools, courts, and hospitals with prison wards. He tells me he hardly gets any looks at all. By open carrying his gun he does not have to worry about the intimination factor that is in the Indiana law. He is a military MP and rides out with the local police from time to time.

 

[d@v3]

Excellent article! Sadly, I live in New York, so everyone is on a witch hunt to ban ccw altogether and are the furthest away from allowing open carry. This article has definitely softened my opinion on open carrying though. I have always advised against the idea due to two reasons: 1) in general, it scares people, and 2) I wanted to keep the "element of surprise".

Now, as for scaring people, I think that totally depends on the type of people you're around. Here in New York you find yourself surrounded by liberal block-heads who like to live in "peace" and "harmony" with one another. Heaven forbid we have a gun poster hanging up in public, let alone someone carrying a REAL gun. ...But we can still kill babies- there's nothing wrong with that. However, in, let's say, Texas, people really don't care because they're used to guns. I will also add that in private settings, I have never had a problem with open carry.

Now, as for the element of surprise, this is also tricky. It really depends on your situation. I've been in situations many times where I was glad my piece was concealed. For example, buying ammunition at Wal-Mart (especially when they denied the ammunition sale causing me to feel the need to strangle the guy!)The guy selling the ammunition knew only one thing, thanks to the liberal media and the Brady campaign: "guns are dangerous and nobody should have them except the police (and Comrade Obama's palace guards)." However, hypothetically speaking, I could definitely see open carry as being a major deterrent in a public place (like a grocery store), however, if you're walking down the streets of Harlem, you're probably going to end up making yourself a huge target- especially if you've got an ivory colored pistol grip.

The point is, it really depends on who your company is and where you are geographically. Keep yourself in perspective. Keep a cool head and above all, use your powers of situational awareness and common sense. I have only ever had to draw my weapon once in a time of need, and the situation was resolved peacefully.

 

[Big Dawg]

I think this as should be a personal choice but in some states ( Mine included GA ) it is not. I personally prefer to carry concealed as I do not want anyone other than my family members to know I am armed as this in a lot of instances gives the bad guys the heads up to ambush me rather than confront me feeling like he has the upper hand. If/when I am confronted by someone who is gonna rob or do me harm I will comnply in order to be able to get my weapon in hand then it will be the double tap to the chest and then one in the head so I KNOW the bad guy will not be able to either get up or return fire. Again this is my personal choice and opinion and nothing more nor less.

 

[rifleshooter474]

I think this as should be a personal choice but in some states ( Mine included GA ) it is not. I personally prefer to carry concealed as I do not want anyone other than my family members to know I am armed as this in a lot of instances gives the bad guys the heads up to ambush me rather than confront me feeling like he has the upper hand. If/when I am confronted by someone who is gonna rob or do me harm I will comnply in order to be able to get my weapon in hand then it will be the double tap to the chest and then one in the head so I KNOW the bad guy will not be able to either get up or return fire. Again this is my personal choice and opinion and nothing more nor less.

Same with myself not wanting to tip anyone off, but I feel making it open carry would sure cut down on many problems with local police. Even if you don't use it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I think this as should be a personal choice but in some states ( Mine included GA ) it is not.

Open carry with a recognized permit is not prohibited in Georgia. It is just as much a personal choice as concealed carry is.

 

[Mark Arthur]

There was definitely a lot of useful and thought provoking information in the post and the responses. I find myself preferring open carry to conceal carry, however, I can see a need for both. The whole concept you put forward in your post about deterrent was well thought out and illustrated, I think you are very right that a would be attacker would at the very least need to re-think their strategy and possibly back off. However, I might point out you have to consider many people who make such attacks are not methodical by nature and are making deperate actions and or could be drug/alcohol induced and may try it regardless of you displaying a firearm. I think in the long run, I would much rather open carry than conceal carry anyways, simply for functionality, fumbling around for a concealed weapon could very well cost your life or phyiscal harm. I would also mention that my intention would be to never need to injure or kill anyone with my firearms, but if carrying one openly deterrs a would be attacker then I say go for it.

 

[rifleshooter474]

I live in new orleans. At least 10 out of 100 are bad cops. Have you read the news lately about the Danziger killings by police . Killing unarmed civilians. And they probably will get off. I fear police down hear more then civilians. When katrina hit police where illegally taking firearms. Really bad cops in new orleans. Someone please respond.

A year later after a jury found me not guilty of pointing a firearm at a person, the arresting Officer TPDs Tulsa, Oklahoma Police Dept. 22 year force Vet. told me to my face Quote:I don't care how many of the jury shook your hand I stand by my arrest,. and I feel the jury got it wrong.
Think she had and open mind the day she was called to investigate this Bastard Steven Jay Sockey saying I pointed myhandgun at him.
Well it sure is not over, i am suing him and letting him feel as I did the fear of losing. It's not the same as me feeling in fear of being convicted, but it's something for this gun hating bastard and his wife to think about.:angry:

 

[FTG-05]

Tagged so I can find Mainsail's well-written OC article again.

 

[homerfire232]

I thoroughly believe in the element of surprise. Keep the bad guy guessing as to who may or may not be packing, and it in itself minimizes the risk!

This was a statement in another post, and I can't help but to question the logic. Why would you want the bad guy to make a 50/50 decision if he is going to try to kill you when you could make it 100% he won't? I find it easy to believe that if a bad guy is going to hold up a 7-11 and he sees no threat, he is going to hold the place up. If he checks out the isle, and sees me with a sidearm, openly displayed, unless he has a death wish he is going to the circle k up the road. I don't think concealed carry minimizes the risk. Thats why uniformed cops don't get held up, duh.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Tagged so I can find Mainsail's well-written OC article again.

I have it bookmarked...
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html

 

[threecentermass]

This is one of the best and well written articles I have read in a very long time, I have always carried concealed.
I think that I have agreed with open carry all along, I have noticed when We (wife and I), would leave the store for the parking lot, I would always uncover my sidearm.
Thanks for a great article.

Mike ( Nevada )