Sears and Kmart - Defense Free Zones

[handgonnetoter]

"Yea, they feel that way now until some crazed bastard walks in with a long gun and starts hosing people down. CCW holder only seconds away, but lets wait on the police who are only minutes away. Yes, much better that way"

Very true Hand. However, in my case, if I hear the distinctive sound of 7.62x39 rounds being fired at the other end mall, I am headed for the next exit. The firearms, that I and many others use for CC are optimal at seven yards or less. There is the full size carry crowd, but against a crazed lunatic with a long gun?

I am not a proponent of open carry. IMO, it scares the sheep, and serves no useful purpose. I have personally seen two individuals open carry. I was not impressed with their overall appearance, or demeanor. On both occasions, these zealots were packing huge pistols. One a model 29, the other a desert eagle. IMO, it was purely a case of, "Look at me". I believe those who do open carry only hinder the concealed carry cause.

Hand, you stated that open carry may save lives. If I were going to go on a shooting spree, guess who my first targets will be? "Those who might stop my homicidal rampage." My victims firearm would only add to my arsenal.

My other opinion on open carry is, in certain neighborhoods, open carry is an open invitation to be "jacked" and relieved of your firearm.

When I go to a shopping mall, or god forbid, Walmart, I always CC. IMO malls are like shooting gallery's.

As I stated earlier, my CC firearm is such that it is only a short distance weapon. It is intended only to get myself, and company out of harms way. It is not intended to go hunting for a crazed assassin with a long gun.

Open Carry may be within the laws of the respective state. IMO, it only results in more restrictive laws being passed. It brings one unnecessary attention. This is not Dodge City. It terrifies the sheep.

IMO, CC is the only way to go. IMO, CC saves lives.

LEE HARVEY OPEN CARRY

Actually, I have to say that I don't much like OC. I don't OC, even though I can in Indiana. Some guys like that way, but I prefer to CCW. I also have to agree with the AK version of hosing people down, and me with a hand gun, would not be a fair fight, but I also saw a video from a store down south where a guy came in the place with an AK and shotgun and started hosing the place down. He killed one employee and shot a few other people before he corned a guy with a CCW. BG with the AK ran out of bullets and went to the shotgun, but lost the fight. I know he had the advantage, but if the CCW guy would not have had his gun, he would have been a statistic too. Yea, I would not run to the sound of gunfire if I heard that familiar staccado of AK fire and all I had was a hand gun, but in that particular case the lucky guy with the CCW lived.:laugh:

 

[HootmonSccy]

Here is the response from Sears to my e-mail..

They need to receive many more like my inquiry

"Dear Harry,

Thank you for your recent correspondence. We are always interested in
hearing from our customers, and regret it was this type of situation
that prompted you to contact us. Please accept our apology for any
offense this may have caused.

With regard to your suggestion that Sears change its policy regarding
weapons in the workplace, Sears has no intention of doing so at this
time as we remain focused on providing a safe shopping and work
environment for our customers and associates

By sharing your concerns, you have enabled us to provide feedback to the
appropriate person. Truly, your remarks provide forthright feedback
that will enable Sears to achieve excellence in everything we do.

Once again, thank you for contacting us.

Sincerely,

Dylan C.
National Customer Relations
Sears Holdings Corp.
Original Message Follows:"


Maybe Dylan didn't understand that their policy actually does NOT make a safer shopping and work environment.. But I'm not surprised..

Unless more people send messages, my request will only be a tiny blip on their radar..

 

[jibbster]

"Yea, they feel that way now until some crazed bastard walks in with a long gun and starts hosing people down. CCW holder only seconds away, but lets wait on the police who are only minutes away. Yes, much better that way"

Very true Hand. However, in my case, if I hear the distinctive sound of 7.62x39 rounds being fired at the other end mall, I am headed for the next exit. The firearms, that I and many others use for CC are optimal at seven yards or less. There is the full size carry crowd, but against a crazed lunatic with a long gun?

I am not a proponent of open carry. IMO, it scares the sheep, and serves no useful purpose. I have personally seen two individuals open carry. I was not impressed with their overall appearance, or demeanor. On both occasions, these zealots were packing huge pistols. One a model 29, the other a desert eagle. IMO, it was purely a case of, "Look at me". I believe those who do open carry only hinder the concealed carry cause.

Hand, you stated that open carry may save lives. If I were going to go on a shooting spree, guess who my first targets will be? "Those who might stop my homicidal rampage." My victims firearm would only add to my arsenal.

My other opinion on open carry is, in certain neighborhoods, open carry is an open invitation to be "jacked" and relieved of your firearm.

When I go to a shopping mall, or god forbid, Walmart, I always CC. IMO malls are like shooting gallery's.

As I stated earlier, my CC firearm is such that it is only a short distance weapon. It is intended only to get myself, and company out of harms way. It is not intended to go hunting for a crazed assassin with a long gun.

Open Carry may be within the laws of the respective state. IMO, it only results in more restrictive laws being passed. It brings one unnecessary attention. This is not Dodge City. It terrifies the sheep.

IMO, CC is the only way to go. IMO, CC saves lives.

LEE HARVEY OPEN CARRY

OK, this may contradict my earlier posts, but I have to agree in substance with IceMan's comments....The one exception is that I am not sure I would run for the first exit..I don't think I would rush in to the heart of the mess, I might hold a position to see if I can be of any use, like picking the shithead off as he passed my location.

Also, I have mixed feelings about open carry...I agree that you become a target (we have seen this when LEOs are picked off first during shootings at city council meetings, etc) and I also agree that the agressive OC movment is doing more harm than good. I understand why they are doing it in places like Kalifornia, where it is next to impossible to get a CCW in most counties, but I think it was too much, too soon for the lib sheeples in that area....places like here in Idaho, OC is no big deal, because 75% of the population is armed leasantry:

 

[SCJeffro]

OC here in NV is getting more and more popular and IMHO it is becoming more and more accepted.
Look what happened in AZ when people didn't throw in the towel, they have actually reverted back to using the Constitution of the United States!

 

[rayven]

The one exception is that I am not sure I would run for the first exit..I don't think I would rush in to the heart of the mess, I might hold a position to see if I can be of any use, like picking the shithead off as he passed my location.

You are willing to forego an escape from a potential deadly situation because you are armed? If I saw or even heard someone shooting, and I had the opportunity to escape, I'm gone. The reason I carry is to protect myself and those who are with me / in my care. If they (or me) aren't threatened directly, I'm not willing to put my life in danger to be a potential hero. Good luck to you if you ever find yourself in that situation.

Also, I have mixed feelings about open carry...I agree that you become a target (we have seen this when LEOs are picked off first during shootings at city council meetings, etc) and I also agree that the agressive OC movment is doing more harm than good. I understand why they are doing it in places like Kalifornia, where it is next to impossible to get a CCW in most counties, but I think it was too much, too soon for the lib sheeples in that area....places like here in Idaho, OC is no big deal, because 75% of the population is armed leasantry:

I disagree about OC doing more harm than good. One of the reasons I carry openly, other than the obvious self-defense purpose, is to show the public in general that we gun-owners are not a threat. I find that I'm more polite and friendly when I OC because I try to be a good ambassador for the firearm community. Many people OC for the same reasons, and act accordingly. My state used to frown on OC, and now it is pretty much accepted. I barely even get a second look anymore.

Also, there aren't many stories (only one that I know of) of people being targeted due to them OC'ing. There are, however, many stories about would-be violent crimes being stopped at the sight of a gun on the hip of a law-abiding citizen. An armed bank robbery was stopped within the last year because the potential thief saw an open carrier.

 

[jibbster]

You are willing to forego an escape from a potential deadly situation because you are armed? If I saw or even heard someone shooting, and I had the opportunity to escape, I'm gone. The reason I carry is to protect myself and those who are with me / in my care. If they (or me) aren't threatened directly, I'm not willing to put my life in danger to be a potential hero. Good luck to you if you ever find yourself in that situation..

Rayven, yes, I would be willing to forego an escape if it meant putting down a bad guy and/or saving lives..maybe it's prior years in law enforcement, maybe it's just the natural ability to step up and help..what good does CC do if everyone turns and runs at the sound of shots? That being said, if I was there with my kids or family, and staying would put them in jeorpardy, the choice would not be as clear cut, as they would have to come first..it's one of those situations where there is no "one size fits all" answer, because the situations vary from one to the other.

I disagree about OC doing more harm than good. One of the reasons I carry openly, other than the obvious self-defense purpose, is to show the public in general that we gun-owners are not a threat. I find that I'm more polite and friendly when I OC because I try to be a good ambassador for the firearm community. Many people OC for the same reasons, and act accordingly. My state used to frown on OC, and now it is pretty much accepted. I barely even get a second look anymore. .

Thanks for your input on this one...it's not that I disagree with you, like I said, guns are very common place here in Idaho. I just wonder if in an unfriendly place such as the SF Bay Area, if all of the OC meetings at restaurants and coffee shops came on too fast and too heavy? I see now where Kalifornia is wanting to make it illegal to OC...knowing that place, they will get their wish.

Also, there aren't many stories (only one that I know of) of people being targeted due to them OC'ing. There are, however, many stories about would-be violent crimes being stopped at the sight of a gun on the hip of a law-abiding citizen. An armed bank robbery was stopped within the last year because the potential thief saw an open carrier.

I don't have a running count of these instance, but they are more common than you elude to..I recall seeing training bulletins and training filsm while in LE where this happened...certainly not every day, but certainly not an anomoly..maybe somoene who is still active in the LE community can chime in on this one? My problem with trying to deter crime by OC is that the bad guy always has the drop on you...he knows his intentions, he can walk in and scope the place out without letting his intentions know, while the rest of us are going about our daily business...I can see where a petty criminal or one that lacks fortitude may back off seeing an OC...but if you get some hardened parolee/three striker/career criminal, I wouldn't bet my life on the fact that he is going to back down seeing your OC.

Thanks for the contradicting opinion, thats why I love the posts on this board!:thank_you2:

 

[SCJeffro]

this thread has gone way fftopic: It's not about what would you do in this situation or that situation, it's not is it OK to OC or not...

This thread was about a Guy who went into a Sears store, was approached by a manager and security. security reached towards the guy's gun and then told him to leave... as he was leaving they followed him threatening to have him arrested and berating him in public for carrying a gun.

The OP then asked that we as a Pro Gun group, boycott Sears (and Kmart being part of sears with the same policy) That is what this post is about. it is pretty simple, are you Pro Gun or Anti Gun?

If you are PRO GUN, stop shopping at places that are Anti Gun and let them know why!

I have seen posts over and over "well you shouldn't OC" it is the OPs ONLY LEGAL METHOD OF CARRY. He CAN NOT Concealed at the moment as he has no CCW. I am waiting for MY CCW as well so OPEN CARRY is my only method also, I am not just going to leave my gun at home... I own it for protection, I carry it for protection, if I don't carry it, what good does it do me?

I have seen "Well I have carried in Sears and Kmart before with no problem" and SO HAVE I! BUT it doesn't mean they don't have a policy against it, it means some of them just don't enforce it... Anyone here ever gone over the speed limit on the freeway and not been caught? Does it mean that there is no speed limit?

There is a big debate right now over a state that has passed it's own law that mirrors the Federal law already on the books, because the feds don't enforce their current law. having laws and policies in place that are not enforced can be a dangerous thing, What if the Sears or Kmart you or I visit decides to enforce their policy the day we are in there carrying? Then it directly effects US not just the OP. He is trying to ensure that never happens to US!

 

[HootmonSccy]

If you are PRO GUN, stop shopping at places that are Anti Gun and let them know why!

The important part of this phrase is "LET THEM KNOW WHY!!!". It's not enough to just stop shopping, they have to know why they are loosing sales AND how many sales they are loosing..
SO spend 10 minutes, click the link I supplied, and let them know that you will not be shopping in their stores anymore and why.. Is that toooooo much to ask?? I even provided an example.. Geeeezzzzz..
It is only when the message is sent in large numbers will it get pushed up into upper management..

Come on, this is the chance for a BIG coop!!

Sears is from Chicago; one of the least gun friendly places in the country.. IF we could get Sears to change their mind, isn't that like a big slap in the face to Chicago's mayor (the big anti-gun spokesman that he is)

 

[SCJeffro]

The important part of this phrase is "LET THEM KNOW WHY!!!". It's not enough to just stop shopping, they have to know why they are loosing sales AND how many sales they are loosing..
SO spend 10 minutes, click the link I supplied, and let them know that you will not be shopping in their stores anymore and why.. Is that toooooo much to ask?? I even provided an example.. Geeeezzzzz..
It is only when the message is sent in large numbers will it get pushed up into upper management..

Come on, this is the chance for a BIG coop!!

Sears is from Chicago; one of the least gun friendly places in the country.. IF we could get Sears to change their mind, isn't that like a big slap in the face to Chicago's mayor (the big anti-gun spokesman that he is)

I agree, here is an email address for their Customer service department [email protected] , I will be attempting to get email addresses for their board of directors Monday.

 

[Scouse]

Read their address

Hoffman Estates, IL 60179
IL!

Have you clued in yet?

 

[SCJeffro]

I think everyone here is well aware that they are headquartered in IL, but all their stores are NOT. The majority of their money comes from stores outside IL... They will eventually be the ones getting "clued in" if all of us gun owners stand together.

The key to this whole thing called "Gun Rights", is "all of us gun owners standing together" That means, all the Hunters, all the Class III/NFA "Machine gun owners", all the Concealed carry ONLY gun owners, all the Open carry "because it's our right" gun owners, all the Black Rifles rule gun owners, all the Bolt Action is the only way gun owners, ALL THE GUN OWNERS...

United we STAND, Divided we FALL... :victory:

 

[HootmonSccy]

Hoffman Estates, IL 60179
IL!

Have you clued in yet?

Refer to my post above...

Come on, this is the chance for a BIG coop!!

Sears is from Chicago; one of the least gun friendly places in the country.. IF we could get Sears to change their mind, isn't that like a big slap in the face to Chicago's mayor (the big anti-gun spokesman that he is)

 

[handgonnetoter]

this thread has gone way fftopic: It's not about what would you do in this situation or that situation, it's not is it OK to OC or not...

This thread was about a Guy who went into a Sears store, was approached by a manager and security. security reached towards the guy's gun and then told him to leave... as he was leaving they followed him threatening to have him arrested and berating him in public for carrying a gun.

The OP then asked that we as a Pro Gun group, boycott Sears (and Kmart being part of sears with the same policy) That is what this post is about. it is pretty simple, are you Pro Gun or Anti Gun?

If you are PRO GUN, stop shopping at places that are Anti Gun and let them know why!

I have seen posts over and over "well you shouldn't OC" it is the OPs ONLY LEGAL METHOD OF CARRY. He CAN NOT Concealed at the moment as he has no CCW. I am waiting for MY CCW as well so OPEN CARRY is my only method also, I am not just going to leave my gun at home... I own it for protection, I carry it for protection, if I don't carry it, what good does it do me?

I have seen "Well I have carried in Sears and Kmart before with no problem" and SO HAVE I! BUT it doesn't mean they don't have a policy against it, it means some of them just don't enforce it... Anyone here ever gone over the speed limit on the freeway and not been caught? Does it mean that there is no speed limit?

There is a big debate right now over a state that has passed it's own law that mirrors the Federal law already on the books, because the feds don't enforce their current law. having laws and policies in place that are not enforced can be a dangerous thing, What if the Sears or Kmart you or I visit decides to enforce their policy the day we are in there carrying? Then it directly effects US not just the OP. He is trying to ensure that never happens to US!

Sorry, lots of these topics get to going just like a face to face conversation would.:biggrin:

 

[handgonnetoter]

I think everyone here is well aware that they are headquartered in IL, but all their stores are NOT. The majority of their money comes from stores outside IL... They will eventually be the ones getting "clued in" if all of us gun owners stand together.

The key to this whole thing called "Gun Rights", is "all of us gun owners standing together" That means, all the Hunters, all the Class III/NFA "Machine gun owners", all the Concealed carry ONLY gun owners, all the Open carry "because it's our right" gun owners, all the Black Rifles rule gun owners, all the Bolt Action is the only way gun owners, ALL THE GUN OWNERS...

United we STAND, Divided we FALL... :victory:

Agreed!:laugh:

 

[hardballer]

This just happened to a Wisconsin OCer. You can read about it Link Removed on OpenCarry.Org. I agree, we must stand together. If we don't they will not feel the heat. They need to understand that we will spend our money elsewhere. Send a copy of your next tool purchase from Lowes or HomeDepot or your washer/dryer purchase from Best Buy, your refrigerator from wherever, etc. If we hurt them in the pocket book, they will be forced to reconsider. :biggrin: or :hang3:

 

[handgonnetoter]

This just happened to a Wisconsin OCer. You can read about it Link Removed on OpenCarry.Org. I agree, we must stand together. If we don't they will not feel the heat. They need to understand that we will spend our money elsewhere. Send a copy of your next tool purchase from Lowes or HomeDepot or your washer/dryer purchase from Best Buy, your refrigerator from wherever, etc. If we hurt them in the pocket book, they will be forced to reconsider. :biggrin: or :hang3:

I thought Wisconsin was one of the two states that did not allow any kind of carry of a hand gun. I think their laws are BS, but they are one of the states that are "black" in color on the CCW permit map. I don't get it.:wacko:

 

[hardballer]

I thought Wisconsin was one of the two states that did not allow any kind of carry of a hand gun. I think their laws are BS, but they are one of the states that are "black" in color on the CCW permit map. I don't get it.:wacko:

In Wisconsin, we Open Carry. There is no concealed carry here. I carry a full sized Stainless 1911, cocked and locked on my waist in a belt slide, thumb break holster. Illinois is the only state I am aware of that does not allow carry for it's citizens.

Hopefully, Wisconsin will join Vermont, Alaska and now Arizona in a blanket carry without the bureaucracy, licensing and taxation. CCW is BS. Licensing you to allow you to exercise your Constitutional Right is a crock and every time we buy into this BS about reasonable laws or responsible legislation that infringes on our right to keep and bear arms, we are losing.

I know this is preaching to the choir, but this has to stop. Can anybody please explain to me why any state needs to license your concealed carry. Please let me know how this prevents crime since the BGs carry concealed regardless of law. If the licensing isn't there to prevent crime; which it is not, it is a tax on your Constitutional right. plain and simple. Wake up. These laws are just there to harass and screw with law abiding citizens. The rest is tax and track.

So I wouldn't be to proud of CCW unless you're from Vermont, Alaska, or Arizona. Short of that, you've been buffalo'd.

 

[SCJeffro]

Just read this on Facebook (Anything about Guns page)

"I notified Sears that i would no longer be a customer of thiers due to them kicking out a law abiding citizen using thier right to arm themself. confirmation of thier ignorance:

Dear Customer,

WEAPONS
...Policy

It is the policy of Sears Holdings Corporation (SHC) that individuals are prohibited from using or possessing firearms or weapons of any kind (including using any tool, supply, product or other resource in a manner that implies that it is a weapon)., concealed or otherwise, at any time while on Company premises (including parking lots) or while engaged in conducting business on behalf of SHC, unless specifically permitted by state law.

Sincerely,
Monica W,
Retail Customer Care
Sears Holdings Corporation"

Now it appears this is out of their employee manual, but it was clearly addressed to a Customer implying that it applies to him as a customer as well.

If you look closely the last line has a little bit of important info in it... "unless specifically permitted by state law." This is in conflict with what everyone else was told about the no firearms policy!! We need clarification from Sears once and for all!

 

[hopnpop]

Just found this thread and wow, what a roller coaster. Seriously, why does any thread or topic that has anything to do with OC become a OC vs CC debate? How long must the dead horse be beaten? For the OC vs CC debate, the jury is back in, people, and it's ruled that both CC and OC have their own pluses and minuses and bickering about which is better won't accomplish a damn thing. If you want to CC, fine, do it. If you want to OC, fine, do it. TO EACH THEIR OWN. There hasn't been any factual evidence that OC has hindered CC rights, so let it go.

Next on the docket - the off-topic issue of the hypothetical mall shooting scenario where we're nit-picking about armed people making an exit or otherwise. To definitively say whether we'd hit the nearest exit or stick around and find cover or engage the shooter... there are way too many variables that come into play for someone to say for sure what they'd do. Location, lay-out, shooter location, cover or lack of, proximity to exits, who you're with, etc. No one can read a paragraph or two about a situation and say with certainly how they'd react.

Back OT with Sears. The "specifically permitted by state law" is a valuable and interesting catch! If that is, indeed, how their policy ir written, then we're golden! Any problem would actually be in their interpretation of their own policy! If that's the case, print it up, deliver it to a manager, and give 'em a smile and a tip of the hat as you stroll through their store armed. Keep in mind, however, that if the manager still feels as though (he) is correct in thinking that guns aren't allowed in the store, he may try and trip you up with a trespass charge. It still could result in detainment and/or even arrest if you're not careful. You'd better have some literature or some type of proof that you're NOT breaking the law or their policy just to be sure your arse is covered. It sucks some of the hoops we have to jump through to excercise our rights but the we do what we have to do, right?

 

[SCJeffro]

See that "specifically permitted by state law" thing would be a NEGATIVE for OC in Nevada!!

You see in Nevada OC is NOT ILLEGAL... That is, there is no law against it, however there is ALSO no law "specifically permitting it" So by that standard Sears Still has a NO OC policy in Nevada... :angry: